Catcher in the Rye

[Monkeydog]

My favourite book. I know why nay sayers...nay say about this book, but their arguments(at least in my view) are irrelevant since they seem to be missing the point. Such as saying Holden isn't an enjoyable main character...he really isn't supposed to be.

Well, anyways, who else likes this book?
If I wake up tomorrow I'll post more on why I enjoy it so much, but until now, DISCUSSION TIME. *dings bell*

[CrookedMan]

I like this book. I was inspired to read it while watching Ghost in the Shell SAC.

I liked Holden, actually. He says things I wish I'd say sometimes.

[Lawliet]

I was supposed to read it for a school assignment, and I got halfway through before I just couldn't anymore. Holden repeated himself too much, and really, he was emo about everything. It seemed as though no matter what the situation was, it depressed Holden.

The nuns in the restaurant depressed Holden.

Going out with that girl depressed Holden.

Going to the museum depressed Holden.

Talking to anyone depressed Holden.

Not talking to anyone depressed Holden.

Personally, I think someone should just give Holden some Prozac and let him be on his merry little way. The Catcher in the Rye reminded me, personally, of a Seinfeld episode without the comedy. It was the book about nothing.

However, I do see why people have marked it as a classic, and it amuses me that serial killers are often found with it on their person. xD Personally, though, it just really isn't my box of cookies.

[ExperimentJon]

The nuns in the restaurant depressed Holden.
Going out with that girl depressed Holden.
Going to the museum depressed Holden.
Talking to anyone depressed Holden.
Not talking to anyone depressed Holden.

Yeah seriously, Holden was just a tiny bit messed up. I dont know. Lots of people say that they really liked this book, but I just didn't really feel it. The writing wasn't all that fantastic, and the storyline was just about a sad little boy trying to find himself. I guess it's worth the read since it's a famous piece though.

[friedpickles]

Well, he is supposed to repeat himself. He is, after all, basically giving one incredibly long monologue that's actually a book. And you wouldn't talk to a doctor if you were happy. It's not the plot that makes it a classic, it's the way it's written. to me it doesn't really matter. Nine Stories was so much better.

[DezKakando]

Let's get this out of the way. This is my favorite book. I'm going to defend it like a maniac. I don't mean to attack anyone's views personally.

The nuns in the restaurant depressed Holden.
Going out with that girl depressed Holden.
Going to the museum depressed Holden.
Talking to anyone depressed Holden.
Not talking to anyone depressed Holden

The point of all this stuff depressing Holden is to show how messed up Holden is, but also how messed up the world is. The stuff that depresses him may seem redundant, but it's important. The museum depressing Holden is important: he is obsessed with the past and the retention innocence. In a museum, all the exhibits remain the same, so this is a source of simultaneous comfort and despair, since it is an escape from the reality that things are constantly changing, but it is also a reminder that thing do change. Thus the depression.

Personally, I think someone should just give Holden some Prozac and let him be on his merry little way. The Catcher in the Rye reminded me, personally, of a Seinfeld episode without the comedy. It was the book about nothing.

I can see why you'd say that, but I think the book is about a lot more than nothing. Having been in a similar sorry state to Holden's, I find it very difficult to say it's about nothing. If you take the time to look closely at what depresses him, you find that it isn't just a bunch of random stuff, although admittedly, it took a lot of patience and effort.

[PillowFort]

Couldn't get into it, tried to read it and suddenly there was a large wall of "PF, you don't care about any of this stuff" in my way.

[batsuangel13]

I had to do this book for American literature, and I thought it was pretty good. I just hope that nobody will try and make a film out of it -_-

[BlackandRedStreaks]

I read this in school and hated it. Please someone explain what the plot was supposed to be. And could the main character be any more irritating? All Holden did was complain. His getting kicked out of school was the only liable complaint and it was his own f*cking fault. D< After I finished reading it I screamed, threw it across the room and started jumping on it. -.-;;

[Argonaut]

[Off Topic: Crooked, there can only be one Boba on these forums. Either you take yours off, or I have to resubscribe to Norton AntiVirus. We're at war, pick a side.]

Anyway, for the people who were pissed at him being sad about everything... Well, Dez pretty much covered it. It isn't just some random novel like Harry Potter and stuff. It's one of the deepest books of that century (and this one, too). You need to analyze it... Most people can relate to him at one point in the story. Then you realize he's spoiled and lazy. Then, at the end of the book, [ you find out he's insane ].

The same cycle of events occur in the story a couple of times. No matter what the disguise, what his decisions, he ends up disappointed. It shows how damaged the world is, like Dez said, and how redundant it is. History repeats itself. It wasn't him, necessarily, who was messed up.

This might not make much sense to you... But it's different at each age you read it. I suggest you read the "What do you want to be?" discussion Holden has with Phoebe. Think about what he says, then everything else that happens in the book. It might make sense to you then.

[DezKakando]

This might not make much sense to you... But it's different at each age you read it. I suggest you read the "What do you want to be?" discussion Holden has with Phoebe. Think about what he says, then everything else that happens in the book. It might make sense to you then.

Excellent point, Argonaut. Most good books carry enough meaning to give readers a different view of it each time it is read.

His getting kicked out of school was the only liable complaint...

Well, I don't know about that... If you take a look at what he complains about in a larger perspective, his complaints are about much more than the small irritations of the world. For instance - I realize this is highly specific, but it's the only one I could think of right away - he is about throw a snowball out his window at different objects after a snowstorm, but he stops after seeing how perfect the snow looks on it. If you stop viewing this as a mere quirk and look at it under critical light, you can see that it means that Holden is obsessed with purity and innocence. That's also why he says that Ernie, the piano player, is a phony; he has sold out his genuine devotion to playing good music for the crowd's approval, corrupting himself.
We're all entitled to our opinions, but I can't see how you can say that it isn't liable to complain against corrupting yourself to live by some else's conception of what you should be.

The same cycle of events occur in the story a couple of times. No matter what the disguise, what his decisions, he ends up disappointed. It shows how damaged the world is, like Dez said, and how redundant it is. History repeats itself. It wasn't him, necessarily, who was messed up.

Well said.

I had to do this book for American literature, and I thought it was pretty good. I just hope that nobody will try and make a film out of it -_-

Nobody will; nobody can. Salinger rejected the request to make a film out of it, even rejected the millions of dollars they offered him. Coincidently, I know the writer who wrote the screenplay that would have been used.

[ShadowLumox]

I have to admit the book was good but i have trouble getting over the grammatical errors that keep popping up (the me & I thing). I know he learned to write In America (couldn't resist) but that's no excuse.
Also the book is meant to be depressing, it's a look at how america (or the world) is changing without that cheery in your face change is good attitude that most americans have. I also read the book after getting over a bad spell of depression so i kept thinking that his outlook on life was the cause of all his problems (therapy still fresh in the mind).

[DezKakando]

I know he learned to write In America (couldn't resist) but that's no excuse.

Do you mean Salinger or Holden? Either way, Salinger knows how to write correctly, as indicated by his other work, and the book is written as though Holden is telling the story to the reader, and people make those sorts of grammatical errors in speech... unfortunately a lot.

[Argonaut]

Which also explains the constant use of the phrase "it really was" (in different forms).

[ShadowLumox]

the book is written as though Holden is telling the story to the reader, and people make those sorts of grammatical errors in speech... unfortunately a lot.

And that's my problem, I'm not saying that i'm grammatically perfect but english isn't my first language but i had the me & I thing drilled into my skull and my attention keeps getting drawn to them so i'm not paying attention to what i'm reading which really spoiled the book for me especially as it's a highly regarded book with a lot of depth (from what i've seen on this page). It's unfortunate that I can't get past the small problems but it's the small touches that authors put in their books that I really like.

[DezKakando]

It's unfortunate that I can't get past the small problems but it's the small touches that authors put in their books that I really like.

I think the grammatical mistakes are small touches that Salinger puts in the book to make Holden seem more American and, consequently, more human. I try extremely hard to make what I write and say grammatically correct almost compulsively because I value the clarity that correctness affords, but I still recognize that errors can be stylistically important to writing, especially for a character like Holden. It's a shame that you can't get past that. Unfortunately, people speak and write incorrectly excessively. To make a character seem real, it makes sense to make him speak without the normal conventions of English.
I guess I have the half-advantage, half-curse of being around American speakers all the time, which means that I'm more or less used to the way people in this country speak, not that their errors don't sometimes get to me.
The book is worth giving another try if you think you can put up with the peculiarities of Holden's speech.

[DezKakando]

Then, at the end of the book, [ you find out he's insane ].

[ I'm not sure insane is quite the word for what Holden is... Neurotic, yes, maladjusted, yes, but insane seems a bit extreme. It's true he's in some kind of hospital, likely for the mentally disturbed, but for him to be insane seems to imply that he's psychotic. If he's insane, he isn't a reliable narrator and the credibility of his dilemma is gone.

It's interesting to note that in order for him to tell the reader the story, the reader has to be in that mental hospital as well... ]

[friedpickles]

When I read the book a couple years ago for my english class, the teacher was of the opinion that Holden was dictating his story to a doctor...hence all the colloquial speech. Which I loved, honestly. If you read it outloud, it would actually sound like a person conversationally talking, which is amazing when you think about it...not many people can write like that. I haven't read the book since then, but as for the purity and innocence thing, that was the major point of his running off to see...jane? jane. right? I thought that was one of the most powerful passages in the book.

but I still love nine stories better <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley2.png'>

[DezKakando]

I haven't read the book since then, but as for the purity and innocence thing, that was the major point of his running off to see...jane? jane. right?

He didn't run off to see Jane. He mentioned Jane frequently throughout the story, and considered calling her a bunch of times, but he never did. He didn't call her probably because he was afraid that she'd changed since he last saw her, which goes back to the purity and innocence idea. He is horribly ill-adjusted to change, so the idea that she has changed is frightening to him.

[Tsochar]

I read this book almost a year ago for school, and I didn't know what to make of it. His observations about 'phonies' interested me, because he really made me think about contradictions in society. People being nice to people they don't necessarily like, or selling oneself to the crowd... I realized that a lot of it had to do with maintaining societal structure and maintaining the status quo while simultaneously balancing one's own individuality. Then I started thinking about GITS:SAC. It suddenly became clear to me what the entire connection between Holden and the Laughing Man was all about, and how it related to the message of the setting as a whole.

I thought about the setting, and was a bit surprised that it took place in the '50s. When we got into discussing the book in a deeper context, I realized how much more it was about. Personally, I think that the mental hospital took him in not because he was necessarily insane, but because he couldn't fit in with society because of his personal beliefs, and was unwilling to make a self-contradiction for the sake of society.

I really wish I had thought of all that while we were studying the book. Well, I got an A on the essay, so no big loss.

As for the topic of purity and innocence, I never really thought about it while reading the book, but discussing it in class made it pretty clear to me.

[itserikz]

yeah, I dislike the book, but I DO respect Salinger for what he did with it.

I mean, seriously, the whole novel is one GIANT circle. [ he begins in the institution or hospital talking to the reader, who is supposed to act as his doctor (which is awesome that Salinger manipulates that) and the book ends that way. Also, if you map out all the areas that Holden visits in the city (you can, generally, because they ARE real places.) That forms a circle too :-D that MIGHT have something to do with it :-P Its been a year since I read it, so I dont really remember any other examples, but the whole book is about innocence, and the attempt to return to it, which is why Circles are so important. Also the epic question left unanswered. Has he moved on, and grown? Has he stayed the same? Or did he get worse in the end? What are your opinions on that? :-P ]

God I love literature.

[DezKakando]

Personally, I think that the mental hospital took him in not because he was necessarily insane, but because he couldn't fit in with society because of his personal beliefs, and was unwilling to make a self-contradiction for the sake of society.

Is contradicting yourself good, though? If you give up your identity for the sake of society, you become lost in the sea of information; you become a phony. This is one of the things the Laughing Man wanted to avoid by becoming a vanishing mediator: he could avoid assimilation into society and the loss of identity by eluding the influence of society as much as possible.

I suppose the good and evil of contradicting self-interests for the sake of social harmony is arguable and depends much on your cultural values as well as your individual values.

If you want to know my opinion, look at my avatar.

[ Also the epic question left unanswered. Has he moved on, and grown? Has he stayed the same? Or did he get worse in the end? What are your opinions on that? ]

You make excellent points, itserikz.

This is what I think. [ Holden has not moved on completely, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. After experiencing the sort of despair that he did, it is impossible to recover without change. That despair would remain with anyone, though; it is not a simple wound that will heal in time. It will be a lifelong struggle for him, as it is for anyone who shares his views. There won't be an end to it, like a circle, much like the circles in the plot. If there is any mercy in the world, his efforts will come to some good.

I think he will follow the advice of Mr. Antolini: he will apply himself as best he can and get educated in order to better share his ideas with the world. The fact that people recognize the book of Catcher in the Rye as such a profound work is proof enough that the world will listen to a certain extent. The world could use the advice of a wiser and older Holden.

What do you think? ]

[itserikz]

[ I was of the mind that he DID begin to make the trek back to a sound state of mind, but that wasn't a wholehearted thought that could be backed up, it was just the feeling in my gut that told me it would be tough for him to find peace of mind, but in the end he would somehow be better in the end. But I have to admit, Dezkakando, I love your interpretation of the ending, but i think the Fuck you lines, and the carousel triggered something in him that told him that we all need to become adults and accept this world. We can't change the universe, nor can we force children to be ignorant of the world around us forever. I forgot the sisters' name, but at the end when she reached for that ring, she was wearing blue. Blue is a Salinger signature of growing up, becoming an adult. Yellow is innocence. So in the end he somewhat understood (i wouldnt say accepted. Not yet) the fact that we all need to grow up in the end. That's what I think. if that is anything at all :-P ]

[Hayou]

I hated that book; it's the type of thing I never would have read if it weren't on the school reading list for my class one year. I can see why some people would like it, but it just isn't my type of book; I can't stand depressing rants where nothing happens. It was just so empty and unresolved in the end... Personally, I think they would have done much better to have our class read a little of Les Miserables.

[DezKakando]

[ Blue is a Salinger signature of growing up, becoming an adult. Yellow is innocence. ]

[ I suppose I might have forgotten or missed something, but where is the color symbolism established? I don't recall that. In fact, I can't remember what is yellow in that book at all that represented innocence and what else that was blue and represented growing up.

True enough though, the "Fuck You"'s led him to the conclusion that the entire world could not be repaired into a happy place, but I don't think he would accept the world so easily. Though seeking complete redemption of the world may be futile and he knows it, I don't think he would have given up trying to cross some of them out.

Even in the end, he finds solace in the same things: the carousel moves around and around, each time his sister, Phoebe, comes back into sight, she is the same innocent child. That remains a source of contentment for him.

I think he returns to a sound state of mind, but I don't think that he entirely accepts the world. How can he? It would take a lobotomy to change his ideas about phoniness and innocence. That sort of attitude does not dissolve even in the process of growing up. Though I do think he does grow up reasonably well and comes to deal with the world.

Then again, if he's anything like Salinger himself, he might just vanish from society entirely, frustrated with the state of the world.

Really, any conjecture we have about the events after the plot of the book will lead us almost nowhere. That is, unless we can find solid backing for any of our speculation, and that'll be a difficult endeavor. ]

[DezKakando]

Come to think of it, why are our posts spoilers anyway? Is it really necessary?

Also, itserikz, for a person who doesn't like the book, you're very well versed in it. I mean this as a compliment. Not many people pay good attention to books they don't enjoy. That's a good quality.

[itserikz]

Salinger and his colors (i could be slightly wrong on the exact definition of what each color represents, but that was close enough methinks) doesnt apply solely to Catcher in the Rye. Its something I heard he uses in nearly all his works (I never read all of his works though, just Catcher). And the reason I know this is because a teacher I once had wrote a thesis on this very subject.Salinger's characters that grow or are adults... something like that XD wear blue or have some sort of blue about them. Its an interesting thought that i believe to be true.

As for Holden not accepting the world, I agree with you. He wouldn't accept the world, not in the way you are saying (the true definition of the word, so you're absolutely right :-P) I was just saying that perhaps he would learn to... hmm how do i say this... not live in it, but more like, Deal with it I guess. But I think he would understand in time that all children have to grow up and that you can't shield them from the pain of the adult world (such as Phoebe reaching for the gold ring).

But we can argue back and forth about it for all eternity. Thats why its the epic question :-D

Also, thanks for the compliment, as a soon to be English major (i start college the fifth >.<) that's a good quality to have. Because guaranteed, some books that are required reading for the class I will probably abhor.

[DezKakando]

You are correct there. He must have at least learned to deal the world better than he had been up until that point, which is why he felt content watching Phoebe on the carousel and made the comment that it's wrong to try to stop a child from reaching for the ring, a metaphor for growing up.

I've never heard that about Salinger's colors. I've read Nine Stories and Catcher but none of his other novels, so I guess I'm too limited in my perspective to say that it isn't true. It's an interesting idea, but I don't know why those particular colors would be associated with innocence and maturation respectively.

I'd like to think that we aren't so much arguing as much as discussing.

Indeed, the ability to put up with books you don't like very much will help you a lot if you are an English major. College-level reading, I imagine, is full of books both to loathe and to love. I start college on the twenty-seventh, next week, planning to minor in English. Godspeed with your studies.

[itserikz]

haha thanks my friend.

And yeah, bad word choice on my part, discussion, not arguing, most definitely :-D I meant no negative connotation with the word.

And I hope you do well in your studies as well ^-^

[DezKakando]

Thank you likewise.

No harm done with your choice of words.