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  #1  
Old 03-04-2013
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Default Which is the most difficult language?

The question is in the title; what do people think is the most difficult language for people to both learn and use?

Points to consider:

1=How much exposure to the language will non-native learners normally get to the language?

2=How complex is its syntax, grammar and punctuation?

3=How difficult is its enunciation and pronunciation?

4=How messed up is its phonic system, should it even have one?

5=How hard is it to read and write?

6=(Key question) How much will a learner need to know before they can effectively communicate via the language?
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  #2  
Old 03-04-2013
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English, if my students are any indication. Second year of college and they still haven't mastered it.

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Old 03-04-2013
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Well, for us westerns, Anything that isn't based or has roots in Latin will probably make us cry in frustration.
Case in point, Japanese.
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  #4  
Old 03-04-2013
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I know a little Japanese. Not enough to carry on a conversation though.

yay for Japanese anime.

Downside is I know some of the words, I just can't read kanji/hiragana/katakana

I'm trying to self-teach myself using Rosetta Stone but I hate how the only way I can get an idea of what I'm saying is by looking at the pictures provided. There's no translation. Just romanization.

Last edited by Ebilkittyprincess28; 03-04-2013 at 10:45 PM.
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Old 03-04-2013
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Swahili? I hear its the hardest one conversationally. Mostly because you have to learn to click your tongue in a few ways.
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Old 03-04-2013
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Cthuvian.
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  #7  
Old 03-05-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebilkittyprincess28 View Post
I know a little Japanese. Not enough to carry on a conversation though.

yay for Japanese anime.

Downside is I know some of the words, I just can't read kanji/hiragana/katakana

I'm trying to self-teach myself using Rosetta Stone but I hate how the only way I can get an idea of what I'm saying is by looking at the pictures provided. There's no translation. Just romanization.
Ebi, look up Micheal Thomas' teaching method, it is much more effective for self-learning than Rosetta Stone. Rosetta works as a reinforcement of outside learning, but it is too cumbersome to used on its own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by l3o2828 View Post
Well, for us westerns, Anything that isn't based or has roots in Latin will probably make us cry in frustration.
Case in point, Japanese.
I am sorry,but I would have to completely disagree; as one who has studied Mandarin, Cantonese and Japanese, I can assure you that not one of these languages holds anywhere near the level of complexity of the European based languages. It should be noted that these are considered the most complex languages in East Asia.

Now, were my view mere anecdote, then it could easily be demised, but most linguists would agree with me. In fact, despite popular belief, Mandarin (the language often mistakenly referred to as Chinese) is a completely manufactured language, which was designed to be so simple any peasant could be taught it with the least possible amount of fuss. Now, actual Chinese (which refers to the written, not spoken, language,) is annoying to write by hand, but is it actually that complex? The answer? No.

Though its grammar is a little bit more complex than Mandarin's, it is still very simple. Next, until about 150 years ago the Chinese did not use punctuation in their writing, that was brought in by western influences; this means, even now, the punctuation required when writing in Chinese is barely worth noting. You use commas (not full-stops) to break up sentences, and use full-stops once you have 'fully' concluded your whole point. That about sums it up. Fully, writing itself, well, yes writing an 'a' is probably much easier than writing the two characters required for 'a' in Chinese, but I would still assert that learning a million different spellings by using most of the mind-destroying phonical systems that we Europeans created is a lot harder than learning characters. Why is this? I hear you cry. Fared, surely to write using English one just needs to learn 26 letters, how hard is that? You ask. Well, when those 26 letters have over a possible 52,000 sound combinations (without even looking at reflective vowels and silent letters), I would say quite hard. Considering that max number of Chinese characters you would ever learn unless you were looking at ancient history is 20,000, give characters every time. Furthermore, we need consider another issue, how our minds work when we read. Reading a phonic script is always more difficult and less natural to us than reading a pictorial one. This is because when reading phonical script one has to go through this process.
Lets take the word Horse.
English:
I see the letters H-o-r-s-e, my minds does not see those 'letters' as a concept to represent a meaning, they see them as a sound which represents a meaning; this means when I read horse, I see letters-my mind draws those letters into a set of sounds, which it then turns into 1 sound that makes a word and once it finally has the word, it associates the word (sound) with the meaning.
Chinese on the other hand, when I see the character for horse, I do not even need to know the sound to know it means horse because my mind is associating an image with a concept.

English
letter - Sounds - Sound - Word - Concept (5 steps)

Chinese

Image - Concept (2 steps)

Thus, reading Chinese characters is very easy. There is a reason the Chinese do not have a problem with dyslexia.

Now, Japanese is more complicated than Mandarin, but its grammar is very consistent, unlike English and certain other European languages, and its pronunciation is very easy to grasp.

With Kanji, well that is just a simplified script of Chinese which, despite having never learnt a single Japanese character, I can read to an acceptable level already due to knowing Chinese.

Japanese phonics, well learning them is a little difficult in a classroom setting because there is two scripts, both with a good number of characters, but once one learns them, they can phonically read Japanese because they are not limited to just 26 letters, so the sounds are a lot less likely to be reflective.

IE T is just T, not CCh, not Ter, not Tee, not...etc, unlike in English.

The aim issue one may find with Japanese is that they do not split their words meaning that it can take a learned eye to start drawing out the individual words, but apart from that, it is not complex.

So, yes, I would asset that these languages, while different to our own, are not more difficult.

Actually, the best advice I could give native English-speaker wishing to learn them is, learn English grammar, then learn how their grammar works; because once you have had to tackle English grammar, you suddenly realise how basic the grammar in other languages is. IE

English

I want to go to the Market

Sub + aux verb + particle for the infinitive + verb + preposition + article + object. (I feel tired)

Japanese

(Watashi wa) shijo ni iki-tai desu

Sub + particle + Object + particle + verb-aux verb

No need for an infinitive or an article. The preposition merely shows motion, not direction, so it never changes from ni, and the aux verb is built into the main verb, so you mean change the ending. Finally, you should in most cases actually drop the subject and its particle altogether, yet further simplifying the sentence.

Mandarin

Wo yao qu yeshi

sub aux verb obj

It sort of speaks for itself, really. I mean the verb 'to go' in Mandarin has the particle and preposition built into it. You could not get anymore simple.

Last edited by Fat1Fared; 03-10-2013 at 08:29 PM.
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  #8  
Old 03-05-2013
YamiBakura7 YamiBakura7 is offline
 
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Well, I have to say Japanese for myself. I'm not good at French, what bloody hopes do I have with Japanese xD but Japan is awesome.
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  #9  
Old 03-05-2013
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Thanks for the tip. I'll look that up

I also have a Japanese-English/English-Japanese dictionary...somewhere and the Japanese for Dummies book.
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  #10  
Old 03-10-2013
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I'm learning Japanese, and I've also tried to learn Spanish and am now learning French in school. In my opinion, as Fat1Fared has said, due to the consistent grammer, consistent pronunciation, and very few exceptions, Japanese is extremely easy, as long as you put aside its non-Latin roots c: Despite Spanish and French having Latin roots, those languages have proven to be the most difficult, complicated, and inconsistent languages for me xD Also, I'm learning Japanese on my own, while taking classes for Spanish and French~
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  #11  
Old 03-10-2013
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English is the most difficult language, because the shit just doesn't make sense, even if you're a native speaker of the language, with all the contradictory and confusing grammar rules, it's damn near impossible to get everything right 100% of the time.

I used to be really good with English classes, top marks all the time, then I took a foreign language, German (which is a little ironic that that language would screw me up since, English is a Germanic Language, but whatevs,) After I started studying German, I discovered truly how hard and difficult the English Language really was.
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  #12  
Old 03-10-2013
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English is my native language, and even I still don't completely get every single rule!
Pfft, there's probably at least several rules that the average American doesn't even follow, where such a thing is accepted as normal. xD
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  #13  
Old 03-12-2013
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Lol the only thing I found difficult with Spanish was the trilling r's

I can't do it and no matter how much I try it sounds crappy

Last edited by Ebilkittyprincess28; 03-12-2013 at 04:10 PM.
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  #14  
Old 03-12-2013
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Well, I admit I do not speak a word of Spanish, but while I was studying in Taiwan, I lived with a Colombian guy who could speak Spanish (obviously), English, German, French, Japanese and Mandarin.

He felt English was pretty easy, and he, to his credit, is one of the few people, non-native or otherwise, whose English is good enough to make such a bold claim without it being ironic in any sense of the word, ether literal or otherwise. However, it should also be noted that this guy's father is an oil baron and so he was educated in both English and Spanish by a top private American institution from about the age of 4, so it is probably not that surprising that his English was very good. To my mind, English is only considered a simply language because most people have no idea just how incompetent their usage of it is, and those who do still lack any idea of how to sort it out because English is the only language have a come across where you can get four Cambridge/Oxford graduates, who are native speakers, arguing over the use of a comma before 'if'. In most languages this would be a pretty straight forward thing that anyone with their level of education should know, but due to the fact that in English both sides were and both sides were wrong, no one could decide which was the best option. (English's clusterfeck problem is due to several things I may write about tomorrow if I have time.)
=Furthermore, many forget that they have probably been learning English since they were four or five meaning their English will have massive advantage over any other second language they choose to learn.

Just to note, he was pretty convinced of the complexity of Spanish.

Anyway, he and I often spoke about languages and their varying degrees of complexity. We both conclusively agreed that Mandarin is piss easy, and that Cantonese is bat-shit insane.

French, on the face of it, is about the same level of complexity as English, but with far less anomalies and far harder pronunciation. (One area in which English is not difficult is pronunciation due to the lack of a 'real' standard pronunciation and variety of different accents both in individual dialects and worldwide. Furthermore, most people have such a high level of exposure to English, even in their early years, that they learn quite early on to recognise the sounds.)

German is again more complex than English on the face of it, but in truth it is a lot easier because although its standard rules are more difficult, its uniformity means once one has learnt German, then like with Chinese, they know German. (English is such a cluster feck that in that previous sentence that one word is has been grossly misused and yet still make sense. ^_- )

He maintained that Japanese grammar can feel difficult at times due to it being a sub, obj, verb structure, rather than a sub verb obj structure, but that it is still in truth rather simple. Japanese is very much helped by the fact that most of its cultural rules are written into the grammar, unlike with many European languages where it is all about context and dump luck. Haha.

That was our conclusions anyway.
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  #15  
Old 03-12-2013
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The language of love.
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  #16  
Old 03-12-2013
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Allison wins this thread.
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  #17  
Old 03-13-2013
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Isn't that French?
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  #18  
Old 03-16-2013
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[ For fun ]

Mandarin Lesson 1: Greetings

Xing-Hui=Pleased to Meet you.

Wo Hen Gaoxing Renshi Ni=I am very happy to know you. (Another way of saying you are pleased to meet someone, but less)

Ni Hao=Hello (Literally, you good) Mostly said to friends and good acquaintances you meet often.

Ni Hao Ma=Hello (Literally, you good, yes or no?) Mostly said to friends or close acquaintances who you have not seen for sometime.

Hao Jiu Bu Jian=Long time no see (Friendly form of hello for friend you have no seen in some time.)

Culture Shock!

Chi Fan Le, Mei You?=Have you eaten? (This is actually one of the most common and friendly ways to say hello in Mandarin. Technically speaking, Mandarin has no actual word for 'hello' (before you say 'wei', shush that is different.) and therefore a very common way to greet someone in Mandarin to ask an obvious question, like 'where have you been?', or 'have you eaten?' It feels clumsy in English, but is very natural in Chinese.

Grammar Sub + Verb + Obj-Nucleus core of Mandarn

This is the heart of Mandarin, and is at this level no different from English.

Sub + Verb + Obj
Wo xihuan Ni
I like you

The main thing to note with Mandarin is that due to the lack of diversity in its phonics, often you one sound will have hundreds of meanings. As in English where you have, there, their and they're. Mandarin this, only doubly so.

Zai=ing, at, again, then....etc (This sound has about 25 basic meanings.) This means in Mandarin, often you should not split a verb from the object associated with it. Now normally this will be the specific object you are referring to:#

Example

Ni jiang yingyu ma?
Do you speak English?

Wo jiang yingyu (Note, will learn about 'ma' and better ways to answer her questions later.)
I speak English.

However, if you do not have a particular object to reference and in fact just want to state a verb, such as saying, I speak, then you still need an object in Mandarin. The object you should use is the object most commonly associated with the verb. These are called verb-object compounds (or VO for short), they are generally only used for single character, high-usage verbs. IE eat, walk, run, talk, speak....etc. (Single character character means only 1 character is used to represent the word/sound.)

So for our example: I speak is actually:

Sub verb obj
Wo jiang Hua
I speak words.

Another example.

Sub + Verb + Obj
Wo chi fan
I eat rice (Note: Fan actually means rice, but due to rice being so commonly eaten in Chinese speaking countries, it can be used as a general, informal term for food.)

Phonics Use google translator's phonic reader for these sounds. While not perfect, it is far better than me, or most of the other ones you will hear online.

Wo= I =Sounds like W-or (There should be a faint R sound their, but often in the sound of South China, this can be dropped, so sounds like W-ow)
Tone=third

Chi= eat =Sounds a little like ch-er, but the er should be very defined.
Tone=first

Fan= Rice/Food = F-an
Tone= Fourth

Jiang= Speak = G like the letter and 'ang'.
Tone=third

Hua= Words/Language/Sentences =He W A

Hope, this was interesting, can keep posting if you like it, and we can go through very fun basics of Mandarin. :)

I would use characters, but this site cannot show them. :(

Last edited by Fat1Fared; 03-16-2013 at 05:30 PM.
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  #19  
Old 03-17-2013
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That's really interesting! :D I think it would be cool to learn Mandarin ^^
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Old 03-17-2013
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Nali Nali. (means thank you, or 'no, not at all.' It is used to show modesty when someone complements you. Its characters mean 'where-where'. As for why the Chinese decided to use the term 'where-where' to thank you, not at all. I admit I have no idea.)

Phonics

Na-r Lee, Na-r Lee.
All third tones.
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  #21  
Old 03-17-2013
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Mandarin Lesson 2=Who, what, where and when?

The great thing about Mandarin is that, unlike English, it is consistent.
So whereas in English we would say.
What is that?
That is <object>.

Mandarin is not so pointlessly convoluted. You just fill in blanks with Mandarin.
That is what?
That is <object>.

Key vocab

Who=Shei=Second tone.

What=Shen'me=Second + Neutral (Not with this has a little ' marker, this highlights that the shen and the me should be spoken as they are one word so instead of saying Shen Me, she-nm-ee.)

Where=Nar=Third tone.

When=Shen'me shihou=Second, Natural, Second, Neutral. (Note, this literally means what time=There are many other words for when and this one can only be used as a question or an indefinite, it cannot be used as a statement. For now we will just work on the questionn)

Sub + be-verb + Question/Object
Ta Shi Shei?
He is who?
Ta shi Tom

Ta zuo shen'me?
He does what?
Ta zuo shengyi
He does business. (Or He is a businessmen/women)

Ta zai Nar?
He at Where?
Ta zai Jia
He at home.
(Note, in Mandarin you only use Be-verbs when stating what something is. Therefore, you do not need to say he is at home, you just say, he at home.)

Shen'me shihou is the odd one out because it is a time word. In Chinese Timewords must ether come before the subject or directly after it. Unlike in English they are not allowed to jump about.

Time + Subject + Verb + Object
Shen'me shihou Ta Hui Jia
When he return home.

Subject + Time + Verb + Object
Ta shen'me shihou hui jia?
When he return home?
(Note as return (hui) is a verb already, you do not need 'does/do' here. In Mandarin, unless stating two actions, you only need the one verb. So When does he return home is literally just, when he return home? Note how we keep losing words during translation? Well, that is just how easy Mandarin is compared to English. )

For now, where you put the time-marker makes no different whichever pattern you use, but i would recommend using the second pattern as it is closer to English and so easier to remember.

Grammar=Verb + Ing =/= Zai + Verb

Note=Zai in Mandarin means both 'at and ing.

So last time you learnt the nucleus grammar, but that is pretty useless for actually existing anything unless one likes sounding like a slightly similar three year old. So now lets learn how to tell someone we are doing something. Zai is the Mandarin version of 'ing' and when placed before a verb it shows your listener that you are doing the verb. (Note, like with English, it is not actually a present tense marker, so it does not actually express the action is happening now. Many English and Mandarin teachers alike do not understand this point and often end up confusing students.)

In contrast to English, Zai comes directly before the verb, not after it. Also note, unlike English again, when expressing an action-verb, you do not need a 'be-verb'.
So, "I am running" in Mandarin is "I running".

Question

Zuo=Do
Wo=I
Ni=You
Ta=He/She/It (yep, spoken Mandarin only has one third-person pronoun.)

Sub + Zai + Verb + Question (Object) <no be-verb needed>
Ni zai zuo shen'me?
You doing What? (What are you doing?)

Answer

Sub + Zai + Verb + Object (Note it is exactly the same pattern, just what=object=)
Wo zai kai che
I driving car (Not Kai-means to start a device, driving in Mandarin is literally, I starting car.)

Wo zai pao bu.
I running track. (I am running on a track. Note, as the track here is an object, not a place, you do not need 'on'.)

Wo zai zuo shi.
Wo doing work. (Note Shi means things, but it is general things like tasks, chores, housework and other such mundane task.)

That is it for Mandarin and 'ing'. (Well for now. ;) ) Seriously, that is as difficult as it gets, so can you use this pattern to answer my question?

Nimen zai zuo shen'me?

Last edited by Fat1Fared; 03-17-2013 at 06:52 PM.
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  #22  
Old 06-17-2013
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I personally see European languages as the most difficult because of the stress on gender and all of the languages with multiple words that mean 'the' that are non-interchangeable. Now, African languages like Talingya (An Eritrean language, and the only African language I know off of the top of my head. Afrikaans does not count!) are more difficult just thanks to the sheer lack of exposure to them, as well as an annoying stress on gender. I hate languages where gender affects how things are phrased- it makes creating genderless characters in stories a living hell.
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  #23  
Old 06-26-2013
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I think English is hard.
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