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  #31  
Old 07-22-2013
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you are getting close to it.

what I was saying is actually 1>0
Yes, failed capitalism is a 1, successful capitalism is a 2, failed communism is a 0, and successful communism is a 1.5.
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  #32  
Old 07-22-2013
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successful capitalism doesn't exist.
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  #33  
Old 07-22-2013
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successful capitalism doesn't exist.
Neither does successful communism though for some strange reason you think it does while successful capitalism doesn't?

I think you're just biased.
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  #34  
Old 07-22-2013
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Neither does successful communism though for some strange reason you think it does while successful capitalism doesn't?

I think you're just biased.
successful communism works in theory, nobody ever tried it.
capitalism doesn't even works theoretically.
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  #35  
Old 07-22-2013
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successful communism works in theory, nobody ever tried it.
capitalism doesn't even works theoretically.
No, it's been tried. And tried. And tried. And tried. And tried. I wonder why it keeps failing.

Oh, I see. In your mind they were TRYING for failed communism.

I just... you have no idea how much I want to call you a complete idiot right now. If you keep saying nonsensical things I'm going to have to break the rules and do so.
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  #36  
Old 07-22-2013
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No, it's been tried. And tried. And tried. And tried. And tried. I wonder why it keeps failing.

Oh, I see. In your mind they were TRYING for failed communism.

I just... you have no idea how much I want to call you a complete idiot right now. If you keep saying nonsensical things I'm going to have to break the rules and do so.
they tried a combination of communism, observation and violence, not the real thing.

well, you are the one defending capitalism, are you not? so you actually are the idiot
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  #37  
Old 07-22-2013
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they tried a combination of communism, observation and violence, not the real thing.

well, you are the one defending capitalism, are you not? so you actually are the idiot
The failures of their attempts at communism came directly from their attempt at communism. Those additional features are how humanity expresses itself when faced with the incompatible burden of communism.

I am defending capitalism because my life is good. I can go work and buy whatever food I want. If I work hard enough I can buy a lot of things I like. I'm allowed to carry on my life in peace. I don't have to deal with a revolution that'll likely take the life of many people I love because some utter twat seems to think any amount of blood is perfectly justified in the name of their political theology.

I'm the smart one here. You have no idea what you're talking about. Just a "useful idiot". If you wanna get better at arguing your point, maybe beg grimfang to teach you how to debate without just repeating yourself over and over.
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  #38  
Old 07-22-2013
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OK, while I know I am going to regret this; Holy, Kronus is right, communism has never been tested - the closest we have ever seen is socialism, which is vastly different.

Also, there are many examples in capitalist organisations of socialist and communist ideals actually strengthening the workforce's work-ethic, not weakening it, as your Government would like to brainwash you to believe.

Many companies now will base their bonus schemes on the performance of the organisation as a whole, rather than individuals performances - this shown be shown to strengthen teamwork and give people a sense of responsibility towards their co-workers thereby strengthening the organisation as a whole.

However, Capitalism is really rather wasteful - in terms of resources, work allocation and distribution - and is the reason that currently we have more obeast people in the world than staving people.

Last edited by Fat1Fared; 07-22-2013 at 01:34 PM.
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  #39  
Old 07-22-2013
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The failures of their attempts at communism came directly from their attempt at communism. Those additional features are how humanity expresses itself when faced with the incompatible burden of communism.

I am defending capitalism because my life is good. I can go work and buy whatever food I want. If I work hard enough I can buy a lot of things I like. I'm allowed to carry on my life in peace. I don't have to deal with a revolution that'll likely take the life of many people I love because some utter twat seems to think any amount of blood is perfectly justified in the name of their political theology.

I'm the smart one here. You have no idea what you're talking about. Just a "useful idiot". If you wanna get better at arguing your point, maybe beg grimfang to teach you how to debate without just repeating yourself over and over.
there is nothing wrong about repeating oneself, when the one argument can't be beaten.

okay, so you have a good life by performing slavery and that is why it is better? don't tell me there is no slavery, there is.

no, non of those who tried communism really tried it.
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  #40  
Old 07-22-2013
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OK, while I know I am going to regret this; Holy, Kronus is right, communism has never been tested - the closest we have ever seen is socialism, which is vastly different.

Also, there are many examples in capitalist organisations of socialist and communist ideals actually strengthening the workforce's work-ethic, not weakening it, as your Government would like to brainwash you to believe.

Many companies now will base their bonus schemes on the performance of the organisation as a whole, rather than individuals performances - this shown be shown to strengthen teamwork and give people a sense of responsibility towards their co-workers thereby strengthening the organisation as a whole.

However, Capitalism is really rather wasteful - in terms of resources, work allocation and distribution - and is the reason that currently we have more obeast people in the world than staving people.
thank you for calling me holy. you may be my high priest from now on.
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  #41  
Old 07-22-2013
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OK, while I know I am going to regret this; Holy, Kronus is right, communism has never been tested - the closest we have ever seen is socialism, which is vastly different.
I'm not arguing that there is successful capitalism or that failed capitalism is better than successful communism. I'm saying that the problems that cause true communists to label historical attempts as failures are simply side-effects due to a miscalculation in how communism works practically, rather than necessarily something that can be fixed by trying it a few more times.

I decided to apply the same argument that communists use to capitalism. Why can't capitalism work right? Obviously people haven't tried to do it right. But what is true capitalism? If it's total free market capitalism then it's naturally going to allow for things like monopolies, which are bad on nearly every level. So then true capitalism is a bad thing. But what about true communism? Is that a good thing? Yes, better than true capitalism. But what about failed communism, that ends up being perverted and manifests as an authoritarian dictatorship under the facade of a democracy? That's worse than even failed capitalism. But what about capitalism that has its problems solved but keeps general free market practices? Ultimately that's labeled as socialist. A small amount of socialism is good medicine in a free market system. But going totally communist, I believe, will always ultimately result in the same authoritarian result, just like going totally capitalist will always ultimate result in things like monopolies and political strongarming by giant corporations as a result.

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Also, there are many examples in capitalist organisations of socialist and communist ideals actually strengthening the workforce's work-ethic, not weakening it, as your Government would like to brainwash you to believe.
Yes, but are those corporations communist in and of themselves? No. They have socialist practices which improve the free market system like I've said.

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Many companies now will base their bonus schemes on the performance of the organisation as a whole, rather than individuals performances - this shown be shown to strengthen teamwork and give people a sense of responsibility towards their co-workers thereby strengthening the organisation as a whole.
See above statement.

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However, Capitalism is really rather wasteful - in terms of resources, work allocation and distribution - and is the reason that currently we have more obeast people in the world than staving people.
I'd rather be fat and die early than starve and die much earlier.
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  #42  
Old 07-22-2013
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I'm not arguing that there is successful capitalism or that failed capitalism is better than successful communism. I'm saying that the problems that cause true communists to label historical attempts as failures are simply side-effects due to a miscalculation in how communism works practically, rather than necessarily something that can be fixed by trying it a few more times.

I decided to apply the same argument that communists use to capitalism. Why can't capitalism work right? Obviously people haven't tried to do it right. But what is true capitalism? If it's total free market capitalism then it's naturally going to allow for things like monopolies, which are bad on nearly every level. So then true capitalism is a bad thing. But what about true communism? Is that a good thing? Yes, better than true capitalism. But what about failed communism, that ends up being perverted and manifests as an authoritarian dictatorship under the facade of a democracy? That's worse than even failed capitalism. But what about capitalism that has its problems solved but keeps general free market practices? Ultimately that's labeled as socialist. A small amount of socialism is good medicine in a free market system. But going totally communist, I believe, will always ultimately result in the same authoritarian result, just like going totally capitalist will always ultimate result in things like monopolies and political strongarming by giant corporations as a result.

Yes, but are those corporations communist in and of themselves? No. They have socialist practices which improve the free market system like I've said.

See above statement.

I'd rather be fat and die early than starve and die much earlier.
NOBODY HAS EVER TRIED COMMUNISM!

and capitalism doesn't work, because it relies on money, but money only exists in our minds.

you apparently worship yourself higher than others.
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  #43  
Old 07-22-2013
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thank you for calling me holy. you may be my high priest from now on.
I was talking to Holyshadow, thus the use of a comma between your names.

Holy, the thing is, Capitalism - true capitalism - has been attempted and it failed woefully. True capitalism took Britain from being the powerful Empire on the planet to recession, starvation and eventually socialism.

On the other hand, Keynesian economics took Germany from being a broken post-war nation to being the economic driving force behind modern-day Europe.

It was the capitalistic love for deregulation that led to our current recession. The problem with capitalism is that its supporters assume that if everyone is working as hard as they can to survive, they will naturally progress - just simply is not true. Humans will always be far stronger when they work together than when they work for just themselves.

Communism on the other hand has never been attempted because no one has even gotten close to setting up a state which fellows actual communist ideals - setting up a totalitarian socialist state and calling it communist, a communist state, it does not make. I mean, the first thing to go in a true communist state is the 'state'.

As for the starvation point, I will forgive your ignorance as you do come from a country which contributes about 90 per cent of the obeast people for that statistic (not a real stat), but you have completely missed the point - if we have enough food to have more obeast people than starving people, why is anyone starving and why are both the USA and the UK only three days from starvation at any given time?

Last edited by Fat1Fared; 07-22-2013 at 01:55 PM.
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  #44  
Old 07-22-2013
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NOBODY HAS EVER TRIED COMMUNISM!

and capitalism doesn't work, because it relies on money, but money only exists in our minds.

you apparently worship yourself higher than others.
China, Cuba, and Russia tried communism. They failed and ended up with a perversion of the ideology. I keep trying to tell you that I think that failure is the only possible result because the ideology at its core won't work as intended.

Money is a representation of the faith in our government and can be easily represented through the purchasing of goods and services rather than relying on archaic trade practices.

I do worship myself higher than others. That's a good thing, too. I'm not a hero even though I want to be. Because I love myself and can't bring myself to make Zariu sad by sacrificing myself for her sake. I'm pathetic and I'm weak-willed, but I'm happy.
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  #45  
Old 07-22-2013
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you may still be my high priest. now sacrifice me a virgin.
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  #46  
Old 07-22-2013
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I was talking to Holyshadow, thus the use of a comma between your names.

Holy, the thing is, Capitalism - true capitalism - has been attempted and it failed woefully. True capitalism took Britain from being the powerful Empire on the planet to recession, starvation and eventually socialism.

On the other hand, Keynesian economics took Germany from being a broken post-war nation to being the economic driving force behind modern-day Europe.

It was the capitalistic love for deregulation that led to our current recession. The problem with capitalism is that its supporters assume that if everyone is working as hard as they can to survive, they will naturally progress - just simply is not true. Humans will always be far stronger when they work together than when they work for just themselves.
Actually the war with nazi germany did that. It became too costly to sustain foreign occupations during a war, so your nation withdrew its forces to avoid heavy losses. When you tried to retake the occupied countries they refused and fought back. As a result you lost your manufacturing base. Without your manufacturing base you couldn't sustain yourself and collapsed economically. It wasn't capitalism that failed you. It was war.

The current recession in the world is a direct result of American policies that led to giving arms to organizations that would later become terroristic in nature as well as giving aid to countries that became free from your imperialistic nation so that they would not turn communist during the long cold war years. America cleaned up after your mess and got ourselves into this problem. As America operates as the country with the monetary standard of the world, our debt issues hurt the economy of the entire world rather than just our own country.

We started wars we couldn't pay for due to economic problems caused by terrorist organizations that we once supported, which just resulted in further problems. Our support of Israel doesn't help matters much either.
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  #47  
Old 07-22-2013
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China, Cuba, and Russia tried communism. They failed and ended up with a perversion of the ideology. I keep trying to tell you that I think that failure is the only possible result because the ideology at its core won't work as intended.

Money is a representation of the faith in our government and can be easily represented through the purchasing of goods and services rather than relying on archaic trade practices.

I do worship myself higher than others. That's a good thing, too. I'm not a hero even though I want to be. Because I love myself and can't bring myself to make Zariu sad by sacrificing myself for her sake. I'm pathetic and I'm weak-willed, but I'm happy.
okay, you are happy and make others suffer. and yet you call me an idiot?

no, they didn't try. they tried socialism
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  #48  
Old 07-22-2013
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Communism on the other hand has never been attempted because no one has even gotten close to setting up a state which fellows actual communist ideals - setting up a totalitarian socialist state and calling it communist, a communist state, it does not make. I mean, the first thing to go in a true communist state is the 'state'.

As for the starvation point, I will forgive your ignorance as you do come from a country which contributes about 90 per cent of the obeast people for that statistic (not a real stat), but you have completely missed the point - if we have enough food to have more obeast people than starving people, why is anyone starving and why are both the USA and the UK only three days from starvation at any given time?
Communism has been attempted. Revolutions have failed in their attempts to start true communist states. I understand what you're saying, Fared. You don't need to repeat yourself. They tend to create authoritarian regimes promising to dissolve the government in some way or another then don't actually do that.

Grim would agree with me on this point - revolutionary communism doesn't work.

I feel sorry for starving people. I do. But what I'd have to do to help them would hurt far too many people. Some people must be sacrificed. Rather than victims, I see them as heroes. It is because of them that I may sustain the life I wish for.
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  #49  
Old 07-22-2013
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okay, you are happy and make others suffer. and yet you call me an idiot?

no, they didn't try. they tried socialism
You try to kick a ball. You fall and slam your head in the pavement. By your definition what you tried to do was fall and slam your head in the pavement. By my definition you tried to kick the ball and fell and slammed your head in the pavement. You're saying "but what if I managed to kick the ball, wouldn't that be sweet?" I'm saying "Yeah but you tried to and you failed to". And you're saying "Nu-uh. I tried to hurt myself".

This is a stupid debate and I'm clearly right.
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  #50  
Old 07-22-2013
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You try to kick a ball. You fall and slam your head in the pavement. By your definition what you tried to do was fall and slam your head in the pavement. By my definition you tried to kick the ball and fell and slammed your head in the pavement. You're saying "but what if I managed to kick the ball, wouldn't that be sweet?" I'm saying "Yeah but you tried to and you failed to". And you're saying "Nu-uh. I tried to hurt myself".

This is a stupid debate and I'm clearly right.
you don't even know the difference between socialism and communism.
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  #51  
Old 07-22-2013
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you don't even know the difference between socialism and communism.
Don't call me stupid, child.
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  #52  
Old 07-22-2013
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Don't call me stupid, child.
I didn't. I said you didn't know the difference between communism and socialism.
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  #53  
Old 07-22-2013
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I can proof that it was never tried. communism has to be worldwide, else it isn't communism.
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  #54  
Old 07-22-2013
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I can proof that it was never tried. communism has to be worldwide, else it isn't communism.
The soviet union attempted to gobble up several states and turn them communist. If expanding communism was part of their goal then they tried to make it worldwide. If they tried to make it worldwide, they tried communism. They failed to reach their goal.

Why can't you understand this.
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Old 07-22-2013
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The soviet union attempted to gobble up several states and turn them communist. If expanding communism was part of their goal then they tried to make it worldwide. If they tried to make it worldwide, they tried communism. They failed to reach their goal.

Why can't you understand this.
they way it the goal. they used violence and war, so communism couldn't be the aim.
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  #56  
Old 07-22-2013
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they way it the goal. they used violence and war, so communism couldn't be the aim.
They used violence and war because they are humans. Their methods led to their failure. But their methods can't be replaced by something else. Revolutionary communism will always fail.

The people must consent to it or it's just going to result in a revolution. If you want to change minds, however, start elsewhere. I've thought this out more than you, so there's no possible way you could win in a debate with me, nor convert my way of thinking. Not because nobody can but because you in particular can't. Just yesterday biggles changed my mind on something because he was right and I was wrong. But you're not him. You only know talking points. But talking points will fail when you face someone smarter than you. Grow or you won't convince anyone but weak-minded 'useful idiots'.
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  #57  
Old 07-22-2013
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that is the first time in my life that I don't want to argue any more.
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  #58  
Old 07-22-2013
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I haven't been playing much attention to what has already been said, but I'll offer my opinion. Everyone hates taxes. They are essentially theft perpetrated by the government. But most people can understand they are necessary. No one wants to live without the services that are provided by tax dollars. We need roads, we need social programs like medicare and foodstamps, and we need healthcare (even if part of America disagrees). Almost everyone will agree we need these things, but the money has to come from somewhere. It makes sense that the people who benefit from these services be expected to chip in and help pay for them.

Libertarians and those of similar mindsets think the free market can provide all of these services and we don't need to rely on the government. But if that were true, why does the free market consistently fail to provide necessary services at a reasonable standard or cost? The answer is because the free market is ruled by how much money can be gained from these services and not by whats in the best interest of the people.

Take the internet for example. In the United States, there is no regulation of internet service despite the fact a reliable internet connection is becoming increasingly necessary to function in any sort of professional capacity. Because of the lack of internet standards, there are many areas in the United States that do not have access to high speed internet, a service that should be treated with the same priority as running water or electricity. The United States lags behind South Korea in internet access because South Korea actually has set standards in place while the United States does not. Internet service providers are free to be as substandard as they want in the United States because there are essentially no consequences for poor service. Many rural areas only have one choice of Internet provider so they can either stick with them or go without.

Source: http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/0...ref=technology

The difference is, South Korea had to get their shit together fast after the Korean War so it placed strict regulations on its corporations. Basically, they told them if they were a shit company, they wouldn't be a company any more. South Korea was so poor at this point in its history they couldn't afford businesses that only exist to screw over everyone that wasn't the CEO of the company. These strict regulations worked and now South Korea is a major economic power.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_South_Korea#Rapid_growth_from_1960s_to_ 1980s


What some people don't seem to understand is that we are more free because we pay taxes. A bit of extra money doesn't do anyone any good if there are no roads to travel on or no safety net to help them if they have a life threatening disease they can't afford to treat. Is a bum living on the streets anyone's idea of freedom? We owe our high standard of living to the fact that taxes pay for essentials. If anyone has a better idea of how we can maintain this standard of living without taxes I have yet to hear it.
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  #59  
Old 07-22-2013
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Originally Posted by HolyShadow View Post
The failures of their attempts at communism came directly from their attempt at communism. Those additional features are how humanity expresses itself when faced with the incompatible burden of communism.

I am defending capitalism because my life is good. I can go work and buy whatever food I want. If I work hard enough I can buy a lot of things I like. I'm allowed to carry on my life in peace. I don't have to deal with a revolution that'll likely take the life of many people I love because some utter twat seems to think any amount of blood is perfectly justified in the name of their political theology.

I'm the smart one here. You have no idea what you're talking about. Just a "useful idiot". If you wanna get better at arguing your point, maybe beg grimfang to teach you how to debate without just repeating yourself over and over.
Just this once.
Pretty much everything HS said. There aren't too many societies where one can rise or fall regardless of what class they were born into. I like being responsible for my own financial successes and failures. I like deciding that I would enlist into the military and no government told me I had to so I could defend some glorious leader. I like that I have a decent place to live, opportunities to move up or even leave if I want with an education, and I get paid enough to get by and save some cash.

Capitalism hasn't failed. Just because it doesn't fit your twisted perceptions of how life should work doesn't mean it isn't successful. For most people in my country, I'd say we have it pretty good with this whole "work hard, play hard" mentality towards economics.
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  #60  
Old 07-23-2013
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Originally Posted by AllisonWalker View Post
Just this once.
Pretty much everything HS said. There aren't too many societies where one can rise or fall regardless of what class they were born into. I like being responsible for my own financial successes and failures. I like deciding that I would enlist into the military and no government told me I had to so I could defend some glorious leader. I like that I have a decent place to live, opportunities to move up or even leave if I want with an education, and I get paid enough to get by and save some cash.

Capitalism hasn't failed. Just because it doesn't fit your twisted perceptions of how life should work doesn't mean it isn't successful. For most people in my country, I'd say we have it pretty good with this whole "work hard, play hard" mentality towards economics.
But that is exactly the problem:
you are happy, but only by having slaves.
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