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  #121  
Old 11-17-2011
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@2Terre:

While I respect your opinion, I disagree with some of your points. In my opinion, your first problem is that you are constantly comparing Jaden and Yugi and that's not fair because they are two different people with different styles and good points and ways of dueling. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

(However, I am sure that my opinion may differ from yours considering that I have watched every episode of YGO and the spin offs in existance. I do agree though that the dub acting is decent.)

Yugi is an interesting and unique character, so is the Pharaoh. The thing is, they ARE both relevant at the same time. In other words, Yugi is just as important as the Pharaoh, and vise versa. The whole seires is about their bond with one another. They help each other. They learn from each other, as Ishizu puts in it one of the last episodes, they are two halves of the same coin. It may seem confusing, or 'kludgy and awkward' to some people but I just see it as a different method of storytelling one should get used to.

Yes, you're right. Yugi may not have as much drive or motivation or incentive as Jaden, but that's why Yugi is so epic. When push comes to shove, when the lives of his friends are on the line he steps up to the challenge even if he would perfer a normal life. He does not give up even in the face of his enemys. The only time he was close to giving up was when the Pharaoh almost killed Kaiba in Duelist Kingdom and it was only because he did not want the Pharaoh to hurt anybody else. Yugi takes burdens upon himself... All for the sake of his friends. Well, what I am trying to say is... Yugi's motivation... Is the people he loves. If they're safe, he's happy. He does not need fame or money, he is a humble character and that's what I like about him.

Jaden, on the other hand while interesting has his faults too. Like I said in a previous post, when the Supreme King took him over and all his friends were getting "sent to the stars", there was a time when Jaden was going to give up all together. So, there was a point where Jaden lost all of his drive.

You're right about Yubel, but she still does give him an advantage that most don't have. She gave him sort of a 6th sense in the 4th season of GX.

They are both active characters, they are just active in different ways. Jaden is motivated by the pleasure he gets from finding good opponents and challenges and Yugi is motivated by the people he loves.

While Jaden seems more cliche then Yugi, I think that's a good thing. I like Jaden, same goes for Yugi but like I said they are different. Yugi is what I would call an old soul because he is perfectly content with a normal life, while Jaden wants a little more. Yugi Is The King Of Games for a reason, too. He earned it. I do like the moment where Jaden thinks more seriously about dueling, but Yugi always had to think serious about it. Pretty much from the start, every game Yugi played, something was on the line. In the beginning, Jaden only had to worry about expulsion.

I think it's cool that Jaden still had an active purpose at the end like you said but Yugi's character is different. Yugi already finished his goal, he surpassed the Pharaoh, and helped him to rest in peace where his spirit belonged. Yugi could then enjoy a peacful life, as he deserved.

I think you should try to watch all of the original YGO before you get a sure opinion on duel spirits. They clarify stuff in the latter part of the show for the most part.

I understand that you think GX is better then the original YGO, however that is, just your opinion. There is a reason why most people say the original is the best, because in most ways, it is. GX is awesome, too. Just different. The plot may seem more plausable to you, but that does not take away the epicness that is the original YGO.

I also like the supporting cast of GX. They have their own facinating quirks. Like I said though, I don't think it's right to compare Chazz to Kaiba, or Syrus to Joey and so on and so on. They're not better, they are two different sets of people brought up in different situations and challenges. They are ALL likable in their own way. That's all.

I'll just talk about the actual seires, so I'll say I thought all three protagonists added something different to the movie. Yes, Jaden may seem interesting because he has a bit more energy but Yugi and Yusei are different so they add something too. They are more experienced, and had (in my opinion) tougher challenges that made them who they are.

So, there you have it. I hope any of what I said makes any sense to you.

:)

EDIT: However, this is just MY OPINION. I am sure there are people out there who will disagree with me.

Last edited by angel of darknezz; 11-17-2011 at 12:53 PM.
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  #122  
Old 11-17-2011
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I think it's pretty cool how different the three (well, four now, I guess) Yu-Gi-Oh protagonists are. They're very distinct, and fit pretty well into different "hero" archetypes.

Yugi's a reluctant hero and a bit of a martyr. He's got kind of a christ-vibe going on, what with all the constantly sacrificing himself for others and forgiving everyone who treats him badly and being so flippin' good all the time. What I like about Yugi is that he's very pure without playing into the "Good is Stupid" trope. He's a smart guy, a genius at strategy, and he's still concerned with always doing the right thing above all.

Compared to that, Jaden's much more of an everyman hero. I haven't watched the show past the first season (though angel's convinced me that maybe I should), but I understand that he's more...normal and that the show shoulders him with a lot of responsibility and he reacts in a more human way than Yugi probably would. I've read (on TVTropes, so credibility here is not the best) that the execs behind Yu-Gi-Oh GX wanted a protagonist with Yugi's skill but Joey's personality.

And Yusei's just a stoic badass. He's not quite flawed enough to be a Byronic hero, but he's got a lot of the trappings. More introspective and brooding than the others, cynical with a guilty past, a desire to change the way things are and the determination to do it...I think Yusei is very appealing to the older, 21st century crowd, while still remaining planted firmly in the realm of "hero" instead of "anti-hero."

So, yeah. I rambled. But it's definitely comparing apples and oranges. They aren't meant to be the same, and I think which you prefer probably depends on which archetype you prefer to read (or in this case, watch) about.

I'm interested to see where the protagonist of Zexal fits in here.
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  #123  
Old 11-17-2011
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Some good points, curbstomp! You mentioned some things I forgot to.

The point is, I don't think Jaden is superior to Yugi. He's just different from him.

EDIT: It just depends on who you as a person perfer, or favor. I like all the YGO protagonists equally.

Last edited by angel of darknezz; 11-17-2011 at 11:37 AM.
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  #124  
Old 11-17-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angel of darknezz View Post
In my opinion, your first problem is that you are constantly comparing Jaden and Yugi and that's not fair because they are two different people with different styles and good points and ways of dueling.
Well, yes. That's how I'm comparing them. I can compare them because they are both protagonists of shounen anime shows, and I can judge them in the context of the overall story that ends up being told and how compelling they are. I'm comparing which is the better protagonist thus: which one do I enjoy watching more?

As to whether it's fair or not: I started my previous post by explicitly saying that I was going to compare them. So that's what I did in the post. I don't feel they need to be compared. It's just what I chose to do. I am certainly not the first person to compare them. Criticisms of Jaden as a character in this topic are done with implicit comparisons to the other protagonists on the table; in BBT Abridged and in other episodes of the series, Jaden and GX are certainly compared to the original series, almost universally negatively. YGO and GX can be compared, it seems intellectually legitimate to compare them, including in the area of the protagonist; and that's all I did.

Quote:
Yugi is an interesting and unique character, so is the Pharaoh. The thing is, they ARE both relevant at the same time. In other words, Yugi is just as important as the Pharaoh, and vise versa. The whole seires is about their bond with one another. They help each other. They learn from each other, as Ishizu puts in it one of the last episodes, they are two halves of the same coin. It may seem confusing, or 'kludgy and awkward' to some people but I just see it as a different method of storytelling one should get used to.
All of which is well and good, but... does it really address my problem? My problem is only one of them is actually dealing with the challenges of the plot at any one time. Is it untrue that all Yugi does is carry the Pharaoh around from card game to card game; or that all the Pharaoh does is come out and play the card games? Their relationship could have been made so much more dynamic, I think. I do understand that the relationship between them is meant to be central, but from what I have watched that relationship could have been defined and explored in a so much more powerful way. When all that happens is Yugi runs into a card game, shouts 'tag in!', and summons the Pharaoh to do it for him... well, is that really a dynamic or interesting relationship?

I will note here that I loathe 'you have to get used to it' as a defence of any weird plot point in fiction, whether in a novel, television show, film, or game. There are, I suppose, certain cases where it's okay - for instance, I can just sit down and read Malory, but for other people who aren't used to the idiom, yes, you do need to acclimatise yourself to the language and conventions of the fifteenth century - but I don't think this is one of them. Why shouldn't the show stand on its own merits?

Quote:
Well, what I am trying to say is... Yugi's motivation... Is the people he loves. If they're safe, he's happy. He does not need fame or money, he is a humble character and that's what I like about him.
I think I said that in my own post. Yugi is a very humble character. Jaden is much more ambitious. Therefore: Yugi needs to be sucked into the conflict by some external force threatening the things he holds dear. That's fine for one or two story arcs, but eventually it starts to feel forced. Why does every villain go out of the way to provoke this guy?

Quote:
Jaden, on the other hand while interesting has his faults too. Like I said in a previous post, when the Supreme King took him over and all his friends were getting "sent to the stars", there was a time when Jaden was going to give up all together. So, there was a point where Jaden lost all of his drive.
I never said Jaden lacked faults. Indeed, interesting characters must have faults. I've already seen Jaden struggle somewhat with his reasons for duelling. Hell, in the last post I called him an adrenaline junkie, and that is not a good thing to be. I would not be in the least surprised if Jaden sinks into depression at some point, given how much of himself he has invested into Duel Monsters.

(Oh, and just for fun, to continue with the M:tG archetypes from before... my feeling is that Yugi himself is a Timmy 'social gamer', while the Pharaoh is a competitive Spike. I like that the Pharaoh is a Spike, actually, because the stereotype is that Spikes are horrible people and he undercuts that. Yes, the Pharaoh cares about winning - so much so that in the finale of YGO he is unable to do the obvious and easy thing and just deliberately lose - but what that really means is that he is determined to always play at his very best, and to push other people to do their best as well.)

Quote:
I think you should try to watch all of the original YGO before you get a sure opinion on duel spirits. They clarify stuff in the latter part of the show for the most part.
Opinions grow and develop over time. You can't just hold off on forming them. You get one in the very first episode - before that, actually, in your pre-judgements - and it changes and evolves as you continue.

Anyway, watching the entire series is a rather titanic accomplishment that I don't think I want to try right now. There are a hell of a lot of episodes of this show. 224, to be exact. I am completely willing to skip over large chunks of it to get to the interesting or relevant parts regarding monster spirits. Do you have any hints for me in that light? I don't mind watching two or three episodes to get the interesting parts regarding spirits, and grabbing the rest of the context from wiki. It's just that I'm not really eager to sit down and watch a hundred.

(After all, wasn't the original purpose of YGO Abridged to just tell the story of YGO while cutting out the card games? Down the line it evolved into being a separate comedy show in its own right. BBT Abridged isn't even that much shorter than the real BBT!)

Quote:
I understand that you think GX is better then the original YGO, however that is, just your opinion.
Yes, that's why I said it.

I also gave some reasons. It is my opinion, but not all opinions are created equal. Some have more reasons than others. I try to give reasons for my opinions, and explain them. :)

Incidentally, you should have a comma after 'however'. 'However' is one of those words that a lot of people mis-use. It is not a conjunction and cannot be used as one.

Quote:
I also like the supporting cast of GX. They have their own facinating quirks. Like I said though, I don't think it's right to compare Chazz to Kaiba, or Syrus to Joey and so on and so on. They're not better, they are two different sets of people brought up in different situations and challenges. They are ALL likable in their own way. That's all.
It seems reasonable for me to make a judgement about which cast I find more entertaining to watch.

Quote:
I'll just talk about the actual seires, so I'll say I thought all three protagonists added something different to the movie. Yes, Jaden may seem interesting because he has a bit more energy but Yugi and Yusei are different so they add something too. They are more experienced, and had (in my opinion) tougher challenges that made them who they are.
In BBT Abridged? Yes, I agree. All three protagonists played off each other well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by curbstomp
Yugi's a reluctant hero and a bit of a martyr. He's got kind of a christ-vibe going on, what with all the constantly sacrificing himself for others and forgiving everyone who treats him badly and being so flippin' good all the time.
Though to nitpick, I'm not sure the comparison works well in every regard; Christ was incredibly driven. His humility was not the sort that led him to just stay at home and do nothing.

Quote:
Compared to that, Jaden's much more of an everyman hero. I haven't watched the show past the first season (though angel's convinced me that maybe I should), but I understand that he's more...normal and that the show shoulders him with a lot of responsibility and he reacts in a more human way than Yugi probably would.
My feeling is that Jaden's archetype is the ace, so to speak, not the everyman. Yugi himself, I would have thought, is more of an everyman, albeit an everyman lifted out of that world through the influence of the Pharaoh. From the very first episode Jaden is someone with almost preternatural skill at duelling, who defines himself and his value largely through the game, and seeks out challenges with confidence and aplomb.

I've seen Jaden question his reasons for playing - and he should, because I don't think his reasons are what he thinks they are; he's not just into duelling because it's fun - and wiki reading has suggested that in the end he will need to try to rediscover his reasons.

I will also say that I do have some complaints with GX, and one of them is right here. Jaden almost always wins. There are certain cases where he is allowed to lose, but for the most part, the plot demands he constantly win. I actually like the episodes where other people get to duel a bit more, because other characters are allowed to lose more often. It does feel more dramatic when Syrus wins a match, because you can tell it was harder for him: there's more drama. Or to take another example... argh, that episode where Chazz has to play his older brother with only weak cards. Non-ace characters. This is especially the case because it feels more like these characters have to work for it. Crowler is actually completely right to call Jaden a slacker; one has to wonder if Jaden just coasts by on natural talent, and if he could be far, far better if he applied himself.

Oh, and the other complaint is not really so much a complaint as saying that often I find GX - and the original YGO, for that matter - to be simply bad, but bad in a hilarious way. Certainly some of the GX dub actors seem to have figured this out and just have fun hamming up their roles as much as possible. I have actually ranted on Steam before to the effect of: "Oh, come on. Yes, Jaden's on 200 life. No, that doesn't mean he's going to lose. Sy, Lex, Bastion, you watch him every time he duels. This always happens. Jaden gets beaten up in the first phase of the match. He goes to very low life. He pulls out a dramatic turnaround. He wins. Pattern recognition. Learn it." For some reason you never see a match that ends in three turns because Jaden got the beatdown out early and the opponent was screwed on the draw.

Anyway. YGO and GX, and I imagine 5Ds as well, are in part so amusing because - and let's be honest here - they are immensely cheesy.

Last edited by 2Terre; 11-17-2011 at 06:38 PM.
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  #125  
Old 11-17-2011
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I think I meant "everyman" more in terms of his attitude and reactions than his skill at Duel Monsters (which is obviously formidable). Yugi's not really an "everyman" because he's pretty much made of Incorruptible Pure Pureness (yeah, I've been on TVTropes too much recently). It's hard for me to put myself in his shoes because there's no way a normal, everyday human being could be that nice and good and forgiving all the time. Jaden's temper and occasional laziness and brashness are much more relatable, hence why I stuck the "everyman" label on him.

But, then again, I haven't seen past the first season, so I bow to your superior expertise.
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  #126  
Old 11-17-2011
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I wish I was actually coherent enough to participate more in the conversation today, but alas. Cold meds have left me almost completely detached from reality.

I did want to say, though, that if you're trying to explain why one series appeals to you over another, then there is nothing wrong with comparing characters. Yes, Protagonist A is obviously different from Protagonist B, but if the whole point is to give your reasoning as to why you like Protagonist A better than Protagonist B, then naturally, you're going to compare the two of them. That's just a matter of course.
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  #127  
Old 11-17-2011
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@2Terre

You bring up some good points, and it's cool that you have such knowledge on YGO, I respect that. I want to bring up something you said, "I'm comparing which is the better protagonist thus: which one do I enjoy watching more?"

In my opinion, you're judgeing on who is the better protagonist based on who like better personally for your own reasons. That's fine, too. At least, that's what I get out of it. I would like to state what I think as well, and defend my points better.

The way I see it, Jaden is not a better character then Yugi, and Yugi is not better then Jaden. They both add something unique to their individual stories. Of course there are going to be people who can relate to or like one character better then the other. That does not make Jaden better then Yugi, they're just... Different. But if you think that or like him better, then that is cool too. Jaden is an awesome character. He is one of the most intrigueing characters in the world of YGO.

Anyway, I can understand what you're trying to say about the whole Yugi/Pharaoh thing... It makes sense to a certain extent. I guess I just never thought of it like that. I have watched YGO since childhood, so I have always been used to it. But I don't think it's as simple as "Is it untrue that all Yugi does is carry the Pharaoh around from card game to card game; or that all the Pharaoh does is come out and play the card games?" to me. I see it as so much more. It's true that in Duelist Kingdom, in the beginning, when Yugi was unaware of the Pharaoh's presence that's all Yugi and the Pharaoh did. However, after that (and the whole incident with Kaiba, and after dueling Mai in the Duelist Kingdom finals), they helped each other more. It's true that the Pharaoh switches over during the duels, but it's not like Yugi is not in control also to a certain extent. It's not like the Pharaoh does it all alone. They work together. That's their struggle.

Now, as for this, "Why does every villain go out of the way to provoke this guy?"; Well, maybe it's because he is the vessel for the Pharaoh, and people are constantly after the Pharaoh so they are after Yugi, too. That's why their bond is so interesting (at least to me). The Pharaoh changed Yugi's life for the better. If it was not for him, Yugi would have stayed the same weakling he was before the Pharaoh came into his life. Yugi needed that sort of push in his life to become stronger, and that's his character development. He taught him courage and standing up against you're enemies... No longer is Yugi the pushover he was in season 0. The Pharaoh learned from Yugi and was changed by him, too. He was taught kindness, and restraint. Anyway, that's why I like their bond and find it perfectly dynamic as it is. In a way, they needed each other to better themselves. I'm sure they could have done better with it, but, it is what it is.

You're right, it was wrong to say, "get used to it". I apologize for that. I just think some people will dislike it and like it for the points you mentioned, the connection between Yugi and Yami. I love YGO, all of DM, GX, 5Ds and Zexal equally and seen every episode there is. So, I try to give them all the benefit of the doubt and try to defend them all. Sorry for coming off as preachy.

It IS a challenge to watch all the episodes of the original YGO. What I ment to say was, if you watch all the episodes you will get a better understanding, and a better sense of what duel spirits are. It'll be a more knowledge view/opinion. I cannot name any particular episodes, but I do know that they start to become a more relevant part of the story in season 4, if that helps :)

I suppose we all have our own opinion on it all, right? This is my opinion: Jaden is not a better protagonist then Yugi. I think Yugi was kind of important to Jaden and a source of inspiration for him. Like I said, they all add something different to the world of YGO. They're all different and they all experienced completely different sets of challenges, but equally likable in their own ways. Then again, this is just my opinion and I know that completely and I respect yours as well.

(At the end of the day, Yugi is still The King Of Games.)

I can completely understand why you like the cast of GX better then the cast of the original YGO. Infact, Chazz Princeton is my favorite character in all of GX. I just wanted to defend the cast of the original, y'know? I thought they deserved that much, I mean there are parts in the manga of GX where they are reffered to as "The Ledgendary Duelists". They are the people who inspired future duelists to follow that sort of legacy. If it was not for them, who knows if Chazz, or Alexis or any likable characters of GX would of been in Duel Academy to begin with, know what I mean? Who knows if they would have even been the same likeable characters that they are now if it was not for the original's influence on them? I think they are all equally as entertaining, depending on who you ask. Not one set of people is necessarily better because they all add something different that make all of YGO as unique as it is. At least in my opinion.

(EDIT: Also, if we are talking about the actual show like I think we are, YGO Abridged is just LK's own funny interpretation of it. It's not accurate, and should be viewed as a sort of seperate entity different from the real thing. Again, my opinion.)

Yes, all the YGO shows are really cheesy. That's part of their charm. <3 <3 <3

Last edited by angel of darknezz; 11-18-2011 at 05:07 PM.
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  #128  
Old 11-18-2011
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  #129  
Old 11-18-2011
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^

O.O
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  #130  
Old 11-18-2011
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  #131  
Old 11-18-2011
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Nice pics. Pharaoh (the cat) is soooo cute. <3
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Old 11-18-2011
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SUCH A CUTIE I can't even take it.

Also I love that the dub included the episode where both Jaden and Chazz spend a good amount of time shirtless. I was more than okay with that. :| </creeper>

Speaking of which:

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Old 11-18-2011
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Huh... Jaden, with glasses. SOMEBODY has a fetish <.<

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  #134  
Old 11-18-2011
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Who, me? A Jaden fetish, maybe.
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  #135  
Old 11-18-2011
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^ He would make an adorable nerd.

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  #136  
Old 11-18-2011
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I think it'd take more than a pair of glasses to make Jaden Yuki into a nerd.
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  #137  
Old 11-18-2011
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Well, of course! That goes without saying... It's still really something to imagine, though.
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  #138  
Old 11-19-2011
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  #139  
Old 11-19-2011
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This has the potential to be both immensely entertaining, and a really, really bad idea.
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  #140  
Old 11-19-2011
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You guys, I ship it so hard:






I love all the jokes that you can make with Chazz's Japanese name. There are so many great pieces of fanart out there that take advantage of the plays on words that can come out of "Manjoume" and his apparent obsession with getting people to use "san" at the end of his name. It's really a shame they don't translate very well. :<
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  #141  
Old 11-20-2011
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I like the first pic.
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  #142  
Old 11-20-2011
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Location: M-my location? Uh, in Noitacol. Yeah. Noitacol.
Blurb: Rain, rain go away, thats what all my haters say.
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So, does anyone except me like Yubel? I think she's an awesome character! Especially with how she and Jaden interacted and you got to know more about her past.
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  #143  
Old 11-20-2011
angel of darknezz's Avatar
angel of darknezz angel of darknezz is offline
 
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Location: The Satellite District of Neo Domino City
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I like Yubel. I didn't at first, but shes okay.

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  #144  
Old 11-20-2011
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mabaliciousness mabaliciousness is offline
 
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Blurb: I'll translate shit for you.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angel of darknezz View Post
I like the first pic.
Me too! The dialogue in that picture is one of the plays on words.

Juudai: Manjoume!!
Manjoume: ...san.
Juudai: Sanjoume?
Manjoume: Man!!

...it doesn't work quite as well in English, does it? Oh well, at least the main point translates: Jaden's all troll, all the time. XD At least when it comes to Spazz Chazz.
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  #145  
Old 11-20-2011
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angel of darknezz angel of darknezz is offline
 
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Location: The Satellite District of Neo Domino City
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Their relationship is entertaining, to say the least.
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  #146  
Old 11-20-2011
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mabaliciousness mabaliciousness is offline
 
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Definitely. I'm so happy that Chazz by this point (end of season one) has essentially joined Jaden's band of groupies. His snarky one-liners make my day. <3 Such a ray of sunshine.
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  #147  
Old 11-20-2011
angel of darknezz's Avatar
angel of darknezz angel of darknezz is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mabaliciousness View Post
Definitely. I'm so happy that Chazz by this point (end of season one) has essentially joined Jaden's band of groupies. His snarky one-liners make my day. <3 Such a ray of sunshine.
Definition of groupies: A young woman, often under age, who seeks to achieve status by having sex with rock musicians, roadies, security, and other band-related guys. (according to www.urbandictionary.com)

So, do they all have sex with Jaden, or something???

(... I knew it!!!)

XD
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  #148  
Old 11-20-2011
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mabaliciousness mabaliciousness is offline
 
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Obviously they fall all over themselves for the chance to touch his deck.
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  #149  
Old 11-20-2011
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angel of darknezz angel of darknezz is offline
 
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... That's dirty <.<

XD XD XD XD XD XD
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  #150  
Old 11-20-2011
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curbstomp curbstomp is offline
 
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