Ryou Bakura?

[BabyBlaire]

Alright everyone, this is more of a poll than anything, but what I'm posting here is a commonly asked question among Yu-Gi-Oh fans; I'm sure that a thousand pages back someone has posted the same question, but this is my post and not theirs. My question is: Ryou Bakura, gay or wrongly accused? It is my belief that our Ryou Bakura is most certainly homosexual, or at least bisexual, judging by not only his feminine qualities, but his suggestive actions around other men. I'm not sure if any other Yu-Gi-Oh fans remember this, but during Mai and Anzu's duel (that never existed in the original manga) Ryou was groping Yugi? Or another time during Yami no Yugi and Seto's duel he was clinging to Jonouchi? There are other things I've noticed about our dear Ryou, but I won't mention them just here for length's sake. Please post your opinion, I'd be happy to hear it.

[DannyLilithborne]

He's asexual. He just doesn't care about people in that way.

[TPishek]

I don't know... he always struck me as more air-headed than anything. It would help if he was actually in some episodes. I mean, seriously, after Duelist Kingdom there's only about five episodes where he isn't controlled by his yami, unconcious, or trapped in the Shadow Realm.
On the other hand, he certainly did look shocked in season zero when Miho started hitting on him....
I have to say, though, that Ryou's homosexually suggestive tendencies sort of pale in comparison to certain other Yu-Gi-Oh characters (*cough*Zigfried*cough*), so the question is how much we're supposed to read into that. I haven't read the manga so I don't know what may have been lost or added in translation to anime. I mean, look at what happened to Sam and Frodo in the LOTR movies---- that wasn't really in the books.

[Titan50]

Get hobbies, people

[KuroStarr]

Booga if I know! :/

But seriously, I don't think he has a preference. Even if we did know, those F-tards would just delete those scenes.[you know who I'm talking about...]

[PBnSpots]

Wrongly accused, I think. Mainly because a lot of the characters in YuGiOh act very gay. Like Zigfried or Yugi (when talking to Yami) but mainly Zigfried. Also, Bakura's "not gay, just British" <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley1.png'>

[KuroStarr]

Also, I'm not a raging yaoi fan like some people.
And that most yaoi fans look for a reason to draw that kind of stuff.
Trust me,most of my friends are yaoi fanatics, I on the other hand, don't like at all...
So I would just stick to my 'no preference' theory.

[BabyBlaire]

I'm not a raging yaoi fan like some people... most yaoi fans look for a reason to draw that kind of stuff.
If you want my opinion I believe it's really the other way around; to a lot of people yaoi, (or just homosexuality in general), is a disturbing or awkward subject; mainly due to the Christian beliefe (say what you will, but I'm a proud Wiccan), that it is wrong. Since so many people think that way, when proof is shoved under their nose they'll turn away in disgust and deny it. Yaoi fans for the most part are very open-minded people, you don't have to love it to accept it, so I don't get along with haters. (I'm bisexual myself, and I must say homosexuality is not a sin, but a preferance). I haven't read the manga so I don't know what may have been lost or added in translation to anime.
Quite a bit was lost in the making of the manga into the anime; I'm a hard-core fan and have read and re-read the Yu-Gi-Oh mangas severall times, I have the whole collection in my room; it never actually comes out and says it, but it is heavily implied that not just Ryou, but most Yu-Gi-Oh males, are indeed gay. (You know, Kazuki Takahashi was bisexual himself). All the eveidance is there if you look for it.

[MrsSallyBakura]

So are we saying they're gay by American standards, or by Japanese standards?

Because as far as I'm aware, Japanese men tend to be much more open to their sexuality than American men (or the west in general). In the west, it's not manly or masculine enough to be affectionate towards other men.
I'm not sure if any other Yu-Gi-Oh fans remember this, but during Mai and Anzu's duel (that never existed in the original manga) Ryou was groping Yugi? Or another time during Yami no Yugi and Seto's duel he was clinging to Jonouchi?
So if I was clinging onto some of my girl friends during an intense battle we were watching, that would make me a lesbian.
And he wasn't really "groping," that was just an abridged quote. He was just clinging to his shoulders.

By your logic, that'd be the case. However, most people don't assume stuff like that about women. They only assume that stuff about men. Honestly, why is that? Why has masculinity turned into emotionless, unaffectionate, lady-pimping? I don't think that's what was intended to be of men. The scene between Yuugi and Yami in Yuugi's room about how Yuugi questions Yami's person and why he's here and who he is (or in the English version, the conversation about failing in a duel)... there's a clip of that scene on YouTube and a lot of people are like, "HOMG THEY'RE SO GAY EEEWWWW!" or "HOMG THEY'RE SO GAY IT'S THE GREATEST THING EVER!!"
And it's just like, "Now wait a second. Why can't there be an in between?" Seriously, why can't there just be a deep friendship? Even if it is a bit homoerotic, that doesn't necessarily make someone gay. David and Jonathon were best friends in the Bible and they used to dance and get naked together all the time and David had a bunch of wives. Of course back in Biblical days, people didn't really care about gay and straight binaries, in fact they probably didn't exist aside from the fact that it was wrong for a man to "lay down with another man the way he would lay down with a woman." Other than sex itself they were allowed to act how they wanted with people of the same sex/gender.

I guess my point is, just because Ryou does these things, it automatically makes him gay? I just have a hard time believing it. I don't think it's fair to him to put him in such a social construct that may very well differ from his own culture, you know?
it never actually comes out and says it, but it is heavily implied that not just Ryou, but most Yu-Gi-Oh males, are indeed gay.
Let's take a step backwards for a moment:
~Yuugi crushes on Anzu
~Joey crushes on Mai
~Honda and Duke crush on Shizuka
~Priest Seto loved Kisara but in the present time most likely could never find someone to replace her (so asexual, I suppose)
~Mokuba is probably too young to have a definite sexual orientation
~Yami no Bakura will use anyone at any given situation to get what he wants. Doesn't matter who he ends up working for. I don't think he could love anyone with his warped conscience.
~Yami no Malik is the same way, except he just wants to kill everyone

I think I've listed most of the YGO males already. At least the main ones.

The main ones who remain:
~Atem
~Ryou
~Malik

I'll finish later when I'm not so tired.

[KuroStarr]

I have a Wiccan friend, 3 aithiest friends[1 of them doesn't like yaoi], and several christian friends[one of my Christan friends is bi]. I think it has to do with your up-bringing, and morals-not religion.
I have nothing against people and their preferences. I just don't like displays of affection in general, not even straight couples.
The point is, I don't mind bi people and what not, you just don't have to give me a lecture or shove it down my throat.
You can point a gun at your feet in the comfort of your own home, I just don't have know about it.[figure of speech]...

[Phate]

It all comes down to preference, I believe. Since Ryou Bakura isn't exactly on screen a lot in the anime, judging from that you could say he's like Aberforth and loves goats.

... Or not. Just saying. XD

I haven't read a lot of the manga (it's a bitch to find where Iive, but I'm working on it!), so I couldn't tell you much, although I have heard that he was the only male who didn't react to Mai's appearance in a... erm... hormonaly driven way? *Shrugs* Not that it says much, anyway.

I write him gay for my fanfiction, but, again, that's just me.

[MrsSallyBakura]

I just remembered an instance in the anime. It's cut from the English version in case you're wondering why those of you who've only seen the English version don't remember this.

It was episode 28 (equivalent to episode 16 of TAS), and Anzu, Ryou, and Honda are climbing up a tower on Pegasus' castle. Honda demands that Anzu go up the rope first so that if she falls either Honda or Ryou could catch her. Anzu refuses and Honda's like, "Why not?" and Anzu pulls down her skirt and goes, "Oh, you know!!" Ryou finds out what she's talking about and gasps. Honda is still clueless so Ryou whispers in his ear what she's talking about.

Here's the clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgQLHonkxYU)

I don't know exactly what this says about him, other than that he knows a bit more about skirts than Honda. That's also not a very hard thing to achieve because Honda is kind of an idiot. xD

I'm with Danny in that Ryou doesn't care about people like that. I don't really imagine him wanting to be in a romantic relationship with anyone. I actually don't blame him, really. He says in the manga that he's not good with girls when he's first introduced as a character, so that probably means he's not good with any kind of romance in general.
to a lot of people yaoi, (or just homosexuality in general), is a disturbing or awkward subject; mainly due to the Christian beliefe (say what you will, but I'm a proud Wiccan), that it is wrong. Since so many people think that way, when proof is shoved under their nose they'll turn away in disgust and deny it.
Watch what you say. It goes the other way around as well.
Take Joey and Kaiba, for example. EXTREMELY popular yaoi pairing. Yet there's clear proof that neither of them are gay, especially not for each other. Yaoi fans "turn away in disgust and deny it."

As a Catholic, I don't care if a gay pairing is canon in an anime, as long as
A. They're not the main pairing
B. It makes sense

I'm a HUGE fan of Sailor Moon yet there's lesbianism in that show. I don't turn away from it in disgust.

[BabyBlaire]

You argue your point well, Sally-Chan, but we're talking about Ryou-Kun here and not other characters or yaoi pairings. Either way, I won't admit you're wrong with that list of yours; perhaps it was a shade harsh to call all of the Yu-Gi-Oh characters gay, I should have put bi-sexual. /laughs/ But you don't honestly believe that characters like Yuugi or Seto are completely straight, do you? I've spent my entire life around gay men, and trust me they're nothing like the way they present them in movies; my older brother is gay, my mother is a lesbian, I'm bi-sexual (and so are most of my friends), my friend's older brother is gay, and I have three gay friends myself. I'm not forcing anyone to believe anything, but if Ryou's straight, then I'm a goat. (The only characters in the show I don't believe to be homosexual or bisexual are Jonouchi and Honda-Kun; I'm not completely over the top you know.)

Lol, sorry about the Abridged Series quote, I actually wasn't thinking of that episode when I chose the word "groping" maybe "clinging" would have been a better choice, eh? I actually thought Ryou was gay long before I even knew the Abridged Series existed; I made this decision after watching the entire show (in Japanese and English) and reading all of the manga (I have the full collection in my room). It's not as if I took one look at Ryou and made my choice, I really did think about it and all in all that's the way the cards fell. /shrugs/ my sister and many other fans I've talked too agree with me.

I think I've mostly proven my point, or defended it in any case, when it comes to Ryou Bakura. The way things look to me, is that Jonouchi and Honda-Kun are heterosexual, I'll say Yuugi, Ryugi (Duke), Seto, Marik, and Yami Yuugi are bi-sexual, and Ryou Bakura (main subject) is homosexual. I think the only characters I left out are Mokuba, (I agree he's too young to have a preference) and Yami no Marik and Bakura. Yami no Marik I'm not sure you could call a person, in the manga and anime he's said to be nothing more than a masochist / sadistic weirdo of Marik's own making, so in other words he's Marik minus everything that makes him human, and that includes sexual preference. Yami no Bakura is a little more complex then all that. In the anime they say he' the Thief King reborn, but in the manga Kazuki Takahashi claims he's both, if you read carefully anyway. He admits to being Zorc Necrophades in the first manga (I think, it's been a while) but throughout all 7 books drops little hints like "The thief’s soul in my ring can sense it..." and other such things.

The whole point of that was to say that I believe Yami Bakura to be a strange mix of The Thief King and Zorc Necrophades. If he were only Zorc Necrophades, then that wouldn't explain the few human moments he sometimes shows, (Like when he saved Ryou's life, or thought he was saving it; he says it's because he needs a body, but he could easily have found a new host if he had wanted too, he didn't need Ryou). And if he were only the Thief King, even obsessed with revenge I don't think he could be so cruel / sadistic. All of this said, I don't think Yami Bakura has a preference of gender, and any "love" he can feel would probably be more like "lust" and gender doesn't matter. Then again, it all comes down to theories and preferences.
I'm with Danny in that Ryou doesn't care about people like that. I don't really imagine him wanting to be in a romantic relationship with anyone. I actually don't blame him, really. He says in the manga that he's not good with girls when he's first introduced as a character, so that probably means he's not good with any kind of romance in general.
You take it as an insult to Ryou to call him homosexual, but you can say he's asexual and be alright with it? I don't know if anyone else agrees with me, but I don't think that's a very kind thing to say. He's not like Yami no Marik, and I believe he is perhaps the most normal (meaning human) character on the show. Thank you for pointing that out, Sally, Ryou does say when he is first introduced in the sixth manga that he's not good with girls, so that instantly makes him asexual? /anime sweatdrop/ I would think that instantly makes him gay, adding of course everything I've said before.

I know you said that the Japanese are more open with their sex, and I know that, Sally-Chan; my mother lived all over the world and told me everything she saw their in the eight years she spent. But in case you didn't remember, Ryou is an exchange student. In the English anime they have him appear British, in the Japanese version they don't say, and same goes for the manga. It doesn't matter where from, really, I'm sure we can exclude anywhere in the middle-east, or east in general, so wouldn't that make him from the west somewhere? I don't think the English anime was far off, if at all.

[QuirkBiscuits]

Ryo has quite a shy personality, so I think the "I'm not good with girls" thing doesn't necessarily make him homosexual or asexual. Just...shy. And he has a feminine appearance, but he's an anime character, and that's quite typical of anime boys. I personally don't think he's gay. Or another time during Yami no Yugi and Seto's duel he was clinging to Jonouchi?
Sorry, I can't remember this, do you know which episode it is? <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley2.png'>

[MrsSallyBakura]

Oh wait, I think I remember where that quote is from... I think it was from abridged episode 14, and in the actual episode both Bakura and Honda are holding Jounouchi back from getting into a fight with Kaiba. So there was no actual "clinging" there, it's just that both Bakura and Honda felt responsible for stopping Joey because they both happened to be right next to him.

Blair, I admit you have an advantage in that you've read all the manga and seen all the anime, which I haven't done yet. However seeing that your background is filled with many more people who are homosexual, it kinda seems like you're looking for smaller details to prove your points. Again I could be wrong because I don't know what exactly is revealed of him in the manga, but in the anime it's kept at a low level because really, it doesn't matter. I remember hearing that Yu-Gi-Oh is much more about friendship than romance, which is one of the things that I really like about it (minus the friendship speeches, at least in the English version because for some reason when hearing them in Japanese, it isn't as tacky).
Ryo has quite a shy personality, so I think the "I'm not good with girls" thing doesn't necessarily make him homosexual or asexual. Just...shy.
Thank you, that was actually my first impression of the quote as well. I never said he was asexual because of that quote, he could just see himself as bad at romance in general and therefore not really be interested at the moment. Besides, I don't see him as being like, "I'm not good with girls... but guys on the other hand...!" You know? By nature he's not very headstrong unless he knows that it's up to him to save his friends' lives, male or female.

I think the main reason why I'm so against the idea of Ryou being gay is because I honestly don't see him wanting to be with any of the male characters in this series. It's not what he needs and it's probably not what he wants.
And he has a feminine appearance, but he's an anime character, and that's quite typical of anime boys.
You bring up an interesting point, too. His appearance =/= his sexual orientation.

However, if you want to talk gender, he definitely has a strange mix between male and female characteristics. Now, when talking queer theory, there's a difference between sex and gender. Sex is your biological genitalia and your gender is your social characteristics, essentially. It is a stretch to call him transgendered though, because he still prefers to be referred to as a male, plus Anzu is still offended at the thought of Ryou potentially looking up her skirt. However, gender and sexual orientation aren't the same thing, and I think people think he's gay because he has feminine qualities (as one of their reasons).
There are also queer theorists who say that there is no gender, but I don't think I quite agree with that because there are male and female characteristics that we are simply born with based on our biological sex.
But you don't honestly believe that characters like Yuugi or Seto are completely straight, do you?
Yuugi is probably bi-curious. He has an interesting relationship with Atem. I remember Dan Green calling it a father-son relationship but I see it more as a big brother-little brother relationship. I think Yuugi sees himself as inferior to Atem for a while and finds Atem's spirit and strength attractive. Though as other queer theorists have stated (and I agree), having gay thoughts doesn't make you gay. It's those gay thoughts mixed with potentially gay actions that make you gay, and I have yet to see that in Yuugi.

As for Kaiba, from what I have seen he has no interest in anyone at all whatsoever, aside from Kisara. Could you perhaps give me some evidence for your argument? <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley7.png'>
I've spent my entire life around gay men, and trust me they're nothing like the way they present them in movies
I haven't spent my entire life around gay people, but I do know a few, and you're right they don't all act like they do in the movies (though I actually do know a few that fit the stereotype, but not all of them do obviously). You may have more knowledge but I'm not completely ignorant.
All of this said, I don't think Yami Bakura has a preference of gender, and any "love" he can feel would probably be more like "lust" and gender doesn't matter. Then again, it all comes down to theories and preferences.
I see Yami Bakura as being much like Iago from Shakespeare's Othello. Pretty much Iago is the villain who feels no remorse for anything that he's ever done, nor does he ever have "motivation" for anything that he's doing, he just does it because it's fun. There is a part in the play where he says something about how he can pretend to have all these reasons for hating Othello (ie because he's jealous of his position of power, he's racist, etc) but really he's not any of those but is willing to pretend. He pretends to be honest, thus the nickname Othello gives him, "Honest Iago." When he definitely isn't honest. But that's a bit off topic.
my sister and many other fans I've talked too agree with me.
And there are many others who would disagree (as you can see in this thread). But as I said before, it probably doesn't even matter. If it did, they'd probably make it more obvious. :/
But in case you didn't remember, Ryou is an exchange student. In the English anime they have him appear British, in the Japanese version they don't say, and same goes for the manga. It doesn't matter where from, really, I'm sure we can exclude anywhere in the middle-east, or east in general, so wouldn't that make him from the west somewhere? I don't think the English anime was far off, if at all.
Yes, I remember that he's a transfer student. But considering his name, it'd be safe to assume that he just traveled from school to school all over Japan. He lives by himself, but his father owns the museum in Domino City, doesn't he? I remember hearing that's in the manga somewhere.

Wall o text is done for now.

[foxontherun]

good bakura or evil bakura?

[TPishek]

"Ryou Bakura" almost always refers to the good Bakura, as opposed to "Yami Bakura" who is evil. So yeah, the good one.

[MrsSallyBakura]

You could have also read the topic to get that.
Unless you hate reading walls of text. :/

[HybridOwl]

I think that all of the arguments on this page are well thought out and much more than I expected to find in this. my personal opinion is that you portray him however you want to portray him; as a fictional character, with much less screen time than most inanimate objects in yu-gi-oh, who's actual preferences are never outright shown (as pointed out, he's a shy guy; that's his character), there is NO WAY to say if he is or isn't, baring, of course, a continuation of the series.
that being said, there are a few issues I have with some of the previous statements, and I hope I didn't miss them being explained. It was episode 28 (equivalent to episode 16 of TAS), and Anzu, Ryou, and Honda are climbing up a tower on Pegasus' castle. Honda demands that Anzu go up the rope first so that if she falls either Honda or Ryou could catch her. Anzu refuses and Honda's like, "Why not?" and Anzu pulls down her skirt and goes, "Oh, you know!!" Ryou finds out what she's talking about and gasps. Honda is still clueless so Ryou whispers in his ear what she's talking about.

I don't know exactly what this says about him, other than that he knows a bit more about skirts than Honda.
in the manga (and I'm pretty sure season zero too), Ryou has a sister. that ALONE would put him in more of a position to know more about 'skirts', and as Honda does not have any siblings, he would not. All of this said, I don't think Yami Bakura has a preference of gender, and any "love" he can feel would probably be more like "lust" and gender doesn't matter. Then again, it all comes down to theories and preferences.
I thought we were talking about Ryou. not that it isn't extremely interesting, and it gave me a little more perspective on Bakura, but it is about Ryou's darker half, not Ryou. the only reason I could understand this in regards to this argument is that in some way Bakura's preference would influence Ryou's preference (by sharing the same body or...?), which would be a very interesting topic all on it's own (the influence Bakura has on Ryou).

I can't find it, but up somewhere in the multiple walls of text there was some one saying that Ryou's name suggested that he moved from another part of japan. but I believe it was in a character bio done by Kasuki Takahashi himself that said that ryou was half Japanese, half English (probably his excuse for having Ryou speak Japanese fluently), but that being said, doesn't that make Ryou come from England, which means he would still be held to the European code of gayness acceptability, rather than japan's, which is admittedly very much more 'who really cares who you sleep with, anyway?' and more open to brotherly affection, as it is probably what kept most people alive in earlier arras, and (like the practice of kendo and karate) hasn't completely faded out.

these are just some of the things I saw, and felt either further explanation from those who said it, or to throw my two cents in.

please let it be noted that after procrastinating from joining this site, I joined just so I could post my opinion on this tread. sooooo sad.

[Fat1Fared]

People, I couldn't care less, I mean the only thing worse than having a joke conversation about whether a CARTOON PERSON is gay or not, it having a serious one, I mean come on guys, none of us on here would call ourselves cool or anything, but there is a line and this is crossing it

The only time I even think about Bakura's gayness is when LK makes joke out of it and then it is just @LAUGH/THINK THAT IS SO TRUE,@

PS=Just to make myself a complete hypocritic, Sally you are wrong about "ancient gayness"

It first came into real thought in early Ancient Egypt, (ironically enough,) where just another way of living,
-before this wasn't really enough evidence to show what was thought of it, so ether wasn't major thing or maybe it wasn't even thought of (PS, before Egypt, my history is pretty poor, so feel free to correct me))

Anyway by the time you talk of, the Jewish "empire" was at its height and Gayness was thought about/not accepted at all, but you are right, people's way of acting was different, so what we would see as gay, would merely be normal practice in this time (PS don't use bible as refence, it would grace Wikipedia as source)

Though, ironically, at the time of the Roman empire, gayness was allowed, though maybe frowned on
which means, our general idea's of gayness (in controlling orthodoxes at lest, (IE biggest bully at the time)) seems to go through full cycles. AKA by time we British, stopped drinking from mud cups (so we could start drinking tea,) and started taking over, it had gone back being seen as wrong, <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley2.png'>

[MrsSallyBakura]

I was using the Bible as a reference because Blair was talking about how Christianity is what causes people to deny certain people's sexual orientation and just wanted to mention how the original Judeo-Christian text doesn't condemn homoerotic activities themselves as long as they aren't actually sexual. I wasn't saying anything about anything else, so how could I be wrong? Of course homosexual sex and whatnot existed and was part of other cultures; (that's actually in the Bible too, believe it or not) I'm not naive of that. I never said that it didn't.

Yeesh, because I'm a Christian I suddenly don't know anything about gay people? I don't claim to be an expert on the subject because I'm not, but that doesn't mean I don't have clue about anything. Just by going to university and being around more gay people and studying about homosexuality in Psychology and queer theory in literature class I feel like I'm learning a lot more, and even before that in my Catholic high school there were gay guys too, one of them I had known since first grade but didn't officially "come out" until 9th grade. Again there is a lot I don't know, particularly about the specifics from various cultures, but I'm pretty sure I know the basics, at least most of them.

Now that that's done...
my personal opinion is that you portray him however you want to portray him; as a fictional character, with much less screen time than most inanimate objects in yu-gi-oh, who's actual preferences are never outright shown (as pointed out, he's a shy guy; that's his character), there is NO WAY to say if he is or isn't, baring, of course, a continuation of the series.
I can agree with this. That's part of the reason why I don't really like to say he's either-or.
Again, I'm mostly against the idea of Ryou being with any of the male characters in the show. Heck, the only female character in the show that I could ever see him with is Shizuka, and that's really stretching it. And I mean really. It's just a speck in the back of my mind that goes, "Eh, uber crack can be fun I guess..."
in the manga (and I'm pretty sure season zero too), Ryou has a sister. that ALONE would put him in more of a position to know more about 'skirts', and as Honda does not have any siblings, he would not.
Duh, of course. I knew that. XD
You're absolutely right. Joey I know would have caught onto that sooner than Honda as well.
but I believe it was in a character bio done by Kasuki Takahashi himself that said that ryou was half Japanese, half English (probably his excuse for having Ryou speak Japanese fluently),
Really? I've never heard of this bio. Is it in the manga anywhere or on the YGO Wiki? I'd LOVE a link (being a huge Ryou fan and all and never have had any luck finding an official bio, just going by what other fans say about him).
please let it be noted that after procrastinating from joining this site, I joined just so I could post my opinion on this tread. sooooo sad.
lol must have really driven you in, huh? Well I guess that's a good thing. Welcome to the forums. <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley1.png'>

[fatfared]

Sally, I was winding you up when said don't use Bible as refence lol, you know me cannot help myself

As for rest, well its point was more a general 1, that you should=

-first: not mix cultural actions with cultural beliefs and gayness is 1 of the best examples of this happening. In African island community, Man are expected to have sex with other man before they are married to Woman, (it is seen as a good way of practicing I suppose,) anyway that is not point, the point is, that in most countries this would be considered a Gay action, however to them it is not, merely normal practice, but if 2 man were to fall in love even without sex, then it would be classed as gayness in that society. And so back to my point, You were saying in Bible gayness is not seen as wrong. However it is seen as wrong, just the cultural actions of gayness at that time, had a far different value to 1's today. ( However on reading your post again, I think you may have been trying to make part of that point anyway)

The second point was one of advice (you see, I am so great, I can do that <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley7.png'> ) that you usually find these things go around in circles, so do not fall into the trap of believing, ether Gayness was seen as natural everyday thing in past, as some (I use this term lightly) Pro-Gays do or it never seen/allowed in past as (again, a lightly used term) some Anti-Gays do. It all again comes down to cultural structure and the historical location you use.

Also to be fair, both arguments are equally foolish as are useless, because if did happen in past, does not make it right, we had public stoning and ate dung for dinner, should start those practices again. And if didn't happen, well in past we didn't have sewer systems and public health systems (well we British do anyway) should they go because they were not in past.

PS:Please tell me, there is not really a subject called "Queer Theory" <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley3.png'>

[MrsSallyBakura]

PS:Please tell me, there is not really a subject called "Queer Theory"
There is.
It's not as bad as you think. At first with Feminist Theory I was like, "Oh crap, feminist theory, it's just a bunch of loud obnoxious women who think that stay-at-home moms wearing aprons are slaves to men and that in order to be a woman you have to try and be better than a man" when that's not necessarily the case. Just like how Queer Theory isn't just, "Oh it's just a bunch of gays and lesbians screaming for marriage rights and calling everyone who believes otherwise a homophobe."

All these types of "theories" are very open-ended and there are many different type of people in every spectrum. For example, there are feminists like Sarah Palin and feminists like Hillary Clinton. EXTREMELY different people right there, and they don't share the same beliefs for the most part, they just believe that women should be equal.

As for the rest of your post, as a whole I agree with it or I'm just willing to let it go and say it's not worth arguing.
Sally, I was winding you up
Meanie. :P
lol

Anyways, back to Ryou Bakura... you really do have to feel bad for the guy. Being possessed by an evil soul from Egypt, forcing himself to separate from the rest of his family, being possessed for days... honestly it doesn't even matter if he's gay or straight. I personally just don't see him being in any sort of relationship in his condition.

[Fat1Fared]

I will have to take your word on that <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley5.png'>

Unless, I just to go to one of these <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley2.png'>

[jcv12689]

He's a homo, just not as much as the fan boy or Zigfried...OR Pegasus for that matter. Now YAMI Bakura is definately heterosexual. But what about Seto Kaiba? Homo or hetero? I shall post!

[TsukiSpazMuffin]

I believe that Ryou is bisexual, at the very least. His shy and quiet nature, like Quirkbiscuits said, makes it hard tell. Girls and boys are drawn to him, they like him. As for if he is more gay than straight, i vote more gay. I just get the feeling that he is more submissive than dominant.

[MrsSallyBakura]

You raise an interesting point.

Does submissive = gay? Or is it more complex than that?

As for jcv:
He's a homo, just not as much as the fan boy or Zigfried...OR Pegasus for that matter.
Pegasus?
He was obsessed with Cindia (Cecilia). So obsessed he'd do anything to bring her back from the death. I'd call Pegasus bi.
Now YAMI Bakura is definately heterosexual.
Why do you say that?
But what about Seto Kaiba? Homo or hetero? I shall post!
I wish you'd put reasonings down for either, because I have yet to see any reasoning to support the fact that he's gay. The only evidence of straightness we have is Kisara, and that was from thousands of years ago (plus in the present he still gets visions of her). If anyone would like to hop in on that discussion, feel free.

[Raulst]

Going on a tangent here...(You know, Kazuki Takahashi was bisexual himself)
Was?

I'm curious to know where you got this information that Takahashi is bi.

Now for my two cents on Ryou Bakura's sexuality...

All I can say is that in anime, there are so many male characters that act effeminate. In real life, our red flags go up if we ever meet a guy who acts unmanly, but that's usually not the case in anime. Therefore, Ryou's effeminate behavior does not necessarily point to a gay sexual orientation.

[HybridOwl]

I'm really, really sorry; I searched all of yesterday, but I can't find it again.

[MrsSallyBakura]

It's fine. Maybe it got deleted. :P

[Noroi]

Well, first off, I feel I should just touch on the whole fangirls liking yaoi thing. There are plenty of guys who love the thought of two girl going at it, so why should it be considered odd that some females feel the same way about two guys? Women are attracted to guys who are sensitve, caring, and open, and a lot of yaoi charactes are like that, so it's natural for us to be pulled towards that fandom.
As for Ryou, I think it's a little hard to judge. There aren't many female characters in Yu-Gi-Oh, and almost all of them are spoken for in one way or anouther.
Tea- in love with Pharoah
Mai- has something going on with Joey, and then later on Valon (that is mostly one sided but she seems to care for him a little towards the end)
Rebecca- literally clings to Yugi

Serenty I think is left open because she doesn't really seem to return the affections of either guys after her, at least that I've seen. And as far as I know Izushu hasn't been snagged by anyone either. Asside from that though, the romance canidate for woman end there.

Just about all the male character seem to act homosexual, though often it's just... well the way they act. Pegasus seems like a total flamer, even though his entire reason for everything bad that he did is to bring back his dead wife. And face it, if we ever saw a kid in real life spouting about things like friendship and the Heart of the Cards, we'd think he was leaning a certain way too.

In my personal mind, no I don't think the creator intended Bakura to be gay. Yes he has flocking fangirl that he ignored, yes he has log hair and it totally cute, yes he is... well I could go on but we all know what I'm talking about. If he had been intended as gay, he would have shown some real tendencies, like actually crushing on a guy or something like that. But do I like to think of him paired up with guys because I'm a fangirl and it's my right? Yes, in that regard I am guilty.

But that's the canon one. I would definitely call Ryou gay in Abridged, or at least Florence... I mean Yami Bakura. <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley2.png'>

[Speedworldon]

u guys do realise that ur arguing if an anime character is gay right <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley5.png'>
if every person who talked and acted gay was gay.......... i would be lol

[MrsSallyBakura]

If he had been intended as gay, he would have shown some real tendencies, like actually crushing on a guy or something like that.
Truth is truth.
I don't think Ryou was meant to have a sexuality in the context of the show... it just doesn't matter, that wasn't why he was made into a character. He was created to be the holder of the penultimate villain of the show while still being friends with the heroes. No romance involved.

By the way, I'm not a fan of guys gogging after yuri either... but I think the way fangirls do it is more annoying, probably because girls tend to write more fanfiction and make more AMVs. It's just more out there.

Also, it's a LOT more socially acceptable for girls to be making out with each other than for guys to. For guys, there's a HUGE gap between homosociality and homosexuality, whereas for girls it's much more of a smooth transition or bridge. Unfortunately, that's just how it is in society.
I would definitely call Ryou gay in Abridged, or at least Florence... I mean Yami Bakura.
EVERY male character in TAS except for Tristan, Kemo, Bandit Keith, and some other minor characters are gay. The latter 3 are even asexual.

xDD That's really funny when you think about it, actually.

[Noroi]

Yeah we know what we're talking about. It's just an amusing topic.

[Fat1Fared]

(Speed, I said that too, but truth it turned out to be quiet a fun debate lol )

In the end, I think that Mr Tas will not have made any of his characters the way they are with intend of having any effect on their sexuality, but merely in a way which he thinks will best help make his story/ make his characters work within that story and if 1 or 2 have come out a little gay, it will more likely be an mistaked side note of the writers mind than an intended action

In this case, he has tried to make Bukura someone who is good at heart and wants to be friends with everyone, but lacks the strength of character to enforce his personalty on a crowd and so often he will become the forgotten member of a group, which leads him to have some serious self-confidence issues and made it so that when he does find a group to be with, he becomes very attached, attentive and affectionate towards the members of that group.

And this can be easily mistaken for Gayness (I think it is also the reason he fells prey to the spirit in his puzzle, it is saying that because YuGi was able to get over his social problems and make friends, he was able to make himself a strong character so he was able to control and work with his puzzle spirit, but Bukura was unable to do this and so was made a weaker person, which allowed him to be enslaved by his puzzle spirit )

[MrsSallyBakura]

I like this post a lot. :3

It's interesting how Yuugi and Ryou foil each other. I could write a paper about that. :3

And yes, these debates are fun. We're not getting worked up over our opinions (well, I do sometimes but that's just how I get no matter the situation, lol, but I calm down and don't attack people for the most part) and it's just a good time we have together as TASers, no? =D

[QuirkBiscuits]

In this case, he has tried to make Bukura someone who is good at heart and wants to be friends with everyone, but lacks the strength of character to enforce his personalty on a crowd and so often he will become the forgotten member of a group, which leads him to have some serious self-confidence issues and made it so that when he does find a group to be with, he becomes very attached, attentive and affectionate towards the members of that group.
Nice analysis there. I think you've got him pinned.

On another note:
The irritating thing is, while he features in the manga a lot, they cut him out a lot in the anime. A lot of the scenes (eg, visiting Yugi in the hospital after the burning building incident in the beginning of Season 2) in the anime don't have him present while in the manga he was there with the rest of the group. His character is more "minor" in the anime, so it's really hard to tell the details about him. You could use the manga as a better source, but I haven't read much of it (yet). <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley5.png'>

I wouldn't say there is any definite canon evidence about Ryo's sexual orientation...YGO is definitely not much of a romance. Even the most obvious couples (eg. Tea/Yugi) don't get very far, do they? I'd say since so much is left to the imagination here, you could think of Ryo as gay or straight, as you like.

[BabyBlaire]

Damn, a lot of posts have sprung up since I was last on; this thread is more popular than I thought it'd be. Before I write my reply, I just wanted to say to everyone here who thinks it's a stupid debate, why are you even bothering? If you think it's stupid, please don't post, because the people who check on this thread actually want to see an opinion to debate on, not, "this is stupid" If it was stupid, would anyone be posting here? Oh, and another thing, Ryou is not a cartoon character, he's an anime character. With that said, I'll move on. In the end, I think that Mr Tas will not have made any of his characters the way they are with intend of having any effect on their sexuality, but merely in a way which he thinks will best help make his story/ make his characters work within that story and if 1 or 2 have come out a little gay, it will more likely be an mistaked side note of the writers mind than an intended action
Honestly, I couldn't agree more with you, when Ryou was first introduced I don't think Kazuki gave a damn about his sexuality, it's not a romance anime / manga. But when it comes to fans and creators, it's a long and rocky difference. Fans always see something as more then it is, if Kazuki Takahashi thought his creation would ever be this popular I'm sure the show would be a little different then the way it is today.

You see, creators will look at their character and think of it as just a character, but fans will look at that character and see it as a person with a life and personality of its own, that's just the way it works. So even if Kazuki Takahashi didn't intend it to happen, that's just the way it came out. /shrugs/ What you said about Ryou made sense, Sally, but I'm still believe he's homosexual. Lol, my gaydar is more sensitive then the norm living my life, and like Noroi said, I can just tell. (Thanks for agreeing with me, sweetheart.) I wouldn't say there is any definite canon evidence about Ryo's sexual orientation...YGO is definitely not much of a romance. Even the most obvious couples (eg. Tea/Yugi) don't get very far, do they? I'd say since so much is left to the imagination here, you could think of Ryo as gay or straight, as you like.
I think, QuirkBistcuits, you summed up most of what I said. There really is no way to tell, (besides some hints in the manga, which I'm re-reading for the 12th time! I counted.) But I think my guess it backed up some, with my experience of homosexuality, my non-Christian belief, and my experience with both the anime and the manga; but this debate is friendly, most definitely Sally, we're just arguing a point. (What's the point of love without sex? I'm only a freshman and glad to say I'm still a virgin, but isn't sex an inevitable part of love? Not to argue Christianity, but how can sex be a sin in any gender? Sex is love, and if love isn’t' a crime I don't think sex should be either.)

Yuugi and Ryou? /thinks about it/ I would think they should be very close friends who understand each other and share a similar burden, but as poor Ryou is normally left out I think not. /hugs Ryou/ He really should be a bigger character, he's got to be one of the most interesting people on the show.

(Oh, and Sally, you say the reason you can't imagine Ryou gay is because you can't think of anyone on the show he'd be dating? I've always considered him and Marik, since the manga and anime are battle manga and anime there isn't as much conversation as I'd prefer, but if there were I just know they'd click.)

[Noroi]

I've always considered him and Marik,
This is a rather cute couple in my opinion. They do seem to have so much in common. I also like the Ryou/Bakura ones, but only when they give a real reason while they're together. It seems a little OOC for Bakura to just radomly start being a nice guy. Though he does seem more protective of the kid than some people give him credit for.Lol, my gaydar is more sensitive then the norm living my life, and like Noroi said, I can just tell. (Thanks for agreeing with me, sweetheart.)
Hey, you're welcome. It just seems to make the most sense. By the way, cute user pic. Very adorable. I just love a blushing Ryou.

[MrsSallyBakura]

Ryou is not a cartoon character, he's an anime character.
Same thing, actually. Anime is just a cartoon from Japan. Granted anime has a different feel than most American cartoons, but it's still a cartoon.

Him and Marik? Eh, you do see a lot more Yami Bakura/Marik stuff out there but that's because they actually converse. I honestly couldn't give an opinion about Ryou/Marik.
Though he does seem more protective of the kid than some people give him credit for.
I actually agree. Though I don't think it's actually out of love for him so much as... an appreciation for his existence, know what I mean? No Yami Bakura wouldn't want Ryou to get hurt, but I think what was said at the end of episode 84 with Atem reflecting on Yami Bakura's relationship with his host and Yuugi comes in and says that the reason why Atem/Yuugi is different is because they're working together whereas Yami Bakura and Ryou are working together but not actually working together as "soul mates" if you will, lol.

[Noroi]

I actually agree. Though I don't think it's actually out of love for him so much as... an appreciation for his existence, know what I mean? No Yami Bakura wouldn't want Ryou to get hurt, but I think what was said at the end of episode 84 with Atem reflecting on Yami Bakura's relationship with his host and Yuugi comes in and says that the reason why Atem/Yuugi is different is because they're working together whereas Yami Bakura and Ryou are working together but not actually working together as "soul mates" if you will, lol.
Oh, definitely. I think the spirit only acts protective of him becasue he is using him. But I also think that giving the right circumstances, it could grow into something more. (Man I love fanfics.) Though honestly 84 has always bugged me a little. If Ryou was so hurt and everything, why didn't he himself forfiet? He didn't even know why the duel was going on in the first place. I think if someone had at least mentioned the posibilty it would have been better, even if there was some lame reason why he didn't. It just seemed so obvious, you know? <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley5.png'>

[MrsSallyBakura]

If Ryou was so hurt and everything, why didn't he himself forfiet?
I just got the impression that he had NO IDEA what was going on.

[Fat1Fared]

(CARTOONS AND ANIMIE ARE SAME) For once we agree on something lol <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley2.png'>

Blaire, I made a mistake in criticizing this debate, but was just saying their is line and think we crossed it here, well I crossed it long time ago, but still lol

Still, turned out to be a fun thing to do, after writing 2000words on whether Britain has Constitution or not

As for Spirit Bukura protecting Ryu, Horoi think you give him way to much credit, he would not care about him at all, if it was not for the fact that he needs him to live. (as shown when he tries to ditch him for Mokubura's body, just after Peguris is beaten)

[MrsSallyBakura]

Exactly, anime is a type of cartoon. Saying that an anime character is not a cartoon character is like saying that a square is not a shape.

I do think that Yami Bakura likes Ryou in some way. An appreciation, as I put it. In the manga it's implied that he's had other hosts before Ryou. I think he likes Ryou and doesn't want him to die, but he doesn't treat Ryou like a friend the way Atem treats Yuugi like a friend.

[QuirkBiscuits]

If Ryou was so hurt and everything, why didn't he himself forfiet?I just got the impression that he had NO IDEA what was going on.
*Agrees* And the plot must go on. If Ryo had just forfieted, there would be no oppurtunity for Yami Bakura to step in to protect Ryo and rebel against Marik.

[BabyBlaire]

Oh, definitely. I think the spirit only acts protective of him because he is using him. But I also think that giving the right circumstances, it could grow into something more. (Man I love fanfics.) Though honestly 84 has always bugged me a little. If Ryou was so hurt and everything, why didn't he himself forfeit? He didn't even know why the duel was going on in the first place. I think if someone had at least mentioned the possibility it would have been better, even if there was some lame reason why he didn't. It just seemed so obvious, you know?
I agree with you, Noroi, (also, thank you for the compliment, I love it too) the anime and the manga share one thing in common in that one scene; I really concentrated on that scene, but I didn't need to because it was just so obvious I've seen that episode 3 times at least, and read it more times then I can count; Yami Bakura's wearing the strangest face, and although he defended his actions, you could still that at least half of him wanted to save Ryou. (And that whole thing with Honda (Tristan), Mokuba, and Yami Bakura never actually happened, that was just the anime guessing. In the manga it never actually showed what happened, but I doubt Yami Bakura would want to replace his reincarnation with Mokuba. /anime sweatdrop/)

Also, I know I've said this already but I don't think what I said was the best way to describe what I was saying. I said that Yami Bakura could not feel love, but could probably feel lust? Well, I think he can love, it's just he doesn't bother with that sort of thing. I mentioned even before that my beliefs on him being half Thief King and half Zorc Necrophades? I actually remember I backed that up with this exact scene, lol. Well, the half of him that is the Thief King, although twisted, was still human and is still capable of feeling emotions, or so I believe. If you pay close enough attention he does rather become attached to Ryou in a way, and if left alone after a long time it is possible that it could develop. I've already expressed my views on Ryou, (homosexual, or bi-sexual), and maybe he could forgive him if given enough time to think about it. (You can tell from Ryou's personality he's a bit of a pushover at times).

Oh, and I know this is a little off-subject, but I need to say this again, you can not call an anime character a cartoon character. When people hear cartoon they think of SpongeBob, and when they hear anime character they think of a - well, their favorite anime character? I'm not really sure, but anime has a deeper feel to it than a cartoon does, and call me obsessed but some anime characters are as real to me as actual people - they have lives and personalities of their own, unlike SpongeBob. But as I said, that's beside the point, weren't we talking about Bakura and episode 84? If Ryou was so hurt and everything, why didn't he himself forfeit?

I just got the impression that he had NO IDEA what was going on.
I agree with Sally, when Ryou was put back in control of his body I doubt he had any idea what was going on; he woke up in the middle of a duel on a blimp (outside) and his arm was bleeding, I doubt he was thinking about Duel Monsters rules and forfeiting, first he probably wanted to know where he was. I know it might sound a little rude, but I thought that was rather obvious. /anime sweatdrop/

[Fat1Fared]

sorry blarie have to disagree with you on both points:

1=Animie is just a type of cartoon, under the every definition of a cartoon. Sure it is not same as other cartoons, but the word cartoon has a broader meaning than just silly kids shows from USA, it can be used for internet CARTOONS, Information CARTOONS and Advisement CARTOON...etc, a cartoon is any form of "animated" TV/ firm/ writing (which is also what Animie actually means, so they even mean same thing) Animie is a cartoon in same way, an apple is a fruit.
-I think you don't people to think Animie is a form of cartoon, because then you think, they will not take it as seriously, however don't worry as all cartoons can be serious if they wish to be and anyone who cannot see the deeper side to Animie, is not worth worrying about as it is there problem not yours.

(sorry meant to put animated writing in as well, but was about 3 in morning and before ask, I couldn't back to sleep after one of my flat mates decided to wake us all up)

2=Here I think you are all seeing what you want to see, rather than what is there. Trust me, Ryou is nothing more than means to an end for the evil Spirit and he only keeps Ryou because he can use him. He only protects Ryou because his own interests are saved with him, and he would ditch Ryou the second he could, if he could get his own body or at less a better host.

[MrsSallyBakura]

I do think that Yami Bakura was kind of nervous about the slight possibility of Atem attacking Ryou. Even if I knew from logic that Atem wouldn't attack Ryou, there's still that itty bitty chance that he would and I know if I were him it'd feel really risky to me. I'd rather lose that one battle than have my body die and never get a chance again. Part of the reason why he enjoyed his loss is because when he reentered Ryou's body, he knew he had another chance.

Also, a cartoon can refer to a comic strip, not just anything you see on TV or in a movie.
I do understand why anime fans wouldn't want to refer to their favorite serious foreign dramas or whatever as cartoons because as Fared said, people are afraid they won't take it seriously. However I think it's important to start looking at anime as a way to show that cartoons can be serious, and if western culture in general can see that cartoons can be serious as well. I mean, when The Simpsons and South Park were made, people were appalled by their material because they saw a cartoon and they thought that it was meant for children, but when they watched it they went, "This shouldn't be viewed by children what were you thinking??!" and the creators went, "...that's the point. It's not for children. It's a cartoon for ADULTS." Granted they are comedic satires, but I think the next step is to make serious cartoons in America not aimed at children, dramas like you see in anime. Maybe some exist, I don't really remember. :/

[QuirkBiscuits]

Oh, I just realized, I don't think you're able to surrender on your opponent's turn. So even if he had an idea of what was going on and wanted to forfeit, he could only do it on his own turn. So it really was all up to Yami...

[BabyBlaire]

Here I think you are all seeing what you want to see, rather than what is there. Trust me, Ryou is nothing more than means to an end for the evil Spirit and he only keeps Ryou because he can use him. He only protects Ryou because his own interests are saved with him, and he would ditch Ryou the second he could, if he could get his own body or at less a better host.
Ah, but that can be said either way, what if you're not looking hard enough? When my test results came in last year for the Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills (TAKS) I failed math, but the results said that I was reading at a 12th grade level, and I'm only in my 8th year. When it comes to reading and writing, or just English in general I'm a master, I know some words that not even my English teacher knows. Lol, I'm telling you this not to brag, but to prove that I'm very good at deciphering tones in writing, I can tell the meaning of certain scenes and the reason behind characters actions - but wait, I already know what you're going to say. Yu-Gi-Oh is a cartoon / Japanese Comic Book, not a novel I'll tell you now, you're right.

Also something I'm skilled in is psychology, not only do I have a few mental illnesses of my own (AB, MPD, BID, MD, etc) but my mother herself is a psychiatrist and I've been reading books on syndromes and human behavior for years, (and as I've already mentioned, I've read the manga several times, I've done background information on Takahashi, watched all the Japanese and English interviews, watched the show in Japanese and English, and I've spent and spend my whole life around homosexual people - Ryou acts just like them)! I can say with 98% positivity that Yami Bakura wanted to save Ryou in that scene. The way he hesitated, the way he stared at Ryou, the look on his face, the way he defied Marik - I'm not denying he did it to save himself, that too, but he also did it for Ryou's sake.

So do you still think I'm merely guessing or seeing things?- there is so much evidence behind my theory that I don't see how you can deny it or turn away. It's a bit obsessive, I know, but I'm proving a point and am one of the biggest YGO fans there are.

P.S. As for anime being a cartoon, I guess it is in a way, but please call him an anime character (not a cartoon character) while we're talking about him, please? It's just something that bothers me, because even I think of SpongeBob when I hear cartoon - I can't be the only one.

[Fat1Fared]

Mate by the age of 12, I was reading and understanding literature at level of an average adult and had an IQ of 134, (just shame I had the spelling ability of 8 year old)

I did not fail a single subject at at any of my final exams (c-a) with my lowest being 1 C at RE and C,C at science, rest were top marks. so lets not use intellect as reasons to prove points here. In the end it is a pedantic point and one which will merely stoke our ego's. Plus it goes on using basic means of testing, which are all complete failures at showing the whole spectrum of intelligence anyway.

As for being a psychiatrist, well my sister is currently in final year of training for that, but that does not make me good at it, (as my grade proved <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley6.png'> )

However I have always been good at reading people and their actions, this was for 1 reason, I realised early on that the easilest explanation is usually right one, people hate to emitted it, but Humans are pretty simple things really. (not everyone follows this rule, but on whole most people are easy enough to understand)

And why'll I cannot say I know much about Takahashi, I can say that he never made this show about individual relationships of love, it is about group relationships and so on.....etc (just read whole of post 35)

I am not saying that the spirit does not care for Ryou, but I am saying his reasons are selfish and when I saw him go to save Ryou, I saw him weighting up the chances of HIM dying and not being able to get HIS WANTS and the chances of success. I think that his smile/look was not at the thought of saving Ryou, but merely at thought of denying Maick

On a final note mate, what people see in others, is merely a mirror of what see in themselves, maybe that is why you see him as caring (in its broadest sense) and I see him as practical.

[Noroi]

Wow. Gone for a couple days and this thing just skyrocketed in posts. <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley1.png'>

Well my dissapointment in the scene was not that he didn't surrender, but that no one else thought of it. Sorry for not making myself clear, rereadin my post I noticed I was a tad confusing. It just felt like an easy solution to a strange problem. It does make sense that he'd be think more "Oh, why am I in pain?" and not "Well, if I surreneder I can go get myslef in taken care of." I just thought, why didn't anyone one else shout it out from the sidelines? Would have taken a couple seconds.Oh, I just realized, I don't think you're able to surrender on your opponent's turn. So even if he had an idea of what was going on and wanted to forfeit, he could only do it on his own turn. So it really was all up to Yami...
Ok, this I can accept. And actually, yeah, I'm pretty sure that is a rule. Yay, I'm satified now. Thanks.

As for the whole 'How does Bakura feel about Ryou?' question. I think the evil spirit is using him for evil puposes, but it could become more if given the chance in my opinion. The potential is there, but as we all know and have stated, this is not a romance anime. If it had been allowed to play out, I would have liked to see where it could have gone.

[Fat1Fared]

Thats because your a Fan-Girl LOL <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley2.png'> <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley7.png'>

[MrsSallyBakura]

You'll have to forgive me for being slightly inconsistent with my points.

I said that he doesn't care for Ryou at all, but then I later said that he has an appreciation for Ryou and has taken some kind of strange liking to him, but it's not the same as Yuugi and Atem's relationship at all, as Bakura and Ryou are not working together in anything and Bakura is more driven by selfish desires than anything really. I mean, Atem wouldn't stab Yuugi's arm to get what he wants, yet Bakura does so freely to Ryou. He doesn't do it out of some sadistic gay thing either (which is what some fangirls try to say...) but he does it because it won't hurt Ryou permanently and it'll help him get what he wants (the Millennium Rod).

And I'm going to agree with Fat1Fared (again) and say that being that smart in literature and psychology or whatever doesn't make your opinion higher or more correct than anyone else's. Also this:
but wait, I already know what you're going to say. Yu-Gi-Oh is a cartoon / Japanese Comic Book, not a novel
Actually, I wasn't going to say that at all. I don't think that it's right to demean a piece of literature JUST because it's an anime/manga. There are literary qualities to it too. Yes it's true that it's not a "novel" or whatever but that's irrelevant, despite popular belief that animation HAS to be a farce or low-brow entertainment. You've gotta give me more credit than that -- I'm not that conservative. ;)

Now, I know you're an expert or whatever of YGO, but I still feel like you may take certain situations out of context, like the "clinging to Joey" thing... I assume you mean the time when in episode 14 of TAS when Ryou says, "That Kaiba bloke needs to get shagged," except it's the real episode and not abridged. You said that he was clinging to Joey during the duel, but he and Honda were actually restraining him. I know I said this before, but you seemed to have ignored it...

Also I would like to know where you got the information that Takahashi was bi. It's not that I don't believe you, I'm just curious.

Plus I have to agree with whoever said that if Ryou was really meant to be gay, it would have been a bit more obvious, at least if it mattered.

[Noroi]

lol Guilty as charged.
I'll be the first to admit I'm hopeless when it comes to this kind of stuff. I'll try to realistic when it comes to the relationship stuff (well, as realistic as one can be when it concerns fictional characters <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley7.png'> ) but I can say that yes, I like the thought of Ryou getting all cuddly with another guy. It's cute, and the boy really deserves soem lurv, and maybe a sandwich too. He's kinda skinny, the poor thing.

[BabyBlaire]

I think the only thing in your whole post that we agree on, Fat1Fared, is that humans are very simple things; there are some people who are strange and shadowed, and I'm going to have to classify Yami Bakura with them. (I could read the full edition of Lord of the Rings in 5th grade, so don't think you're too cool, sweetie. Lol)

As for Ryou and Bakura-Kun in episode 84, you're right in a way, Fat1Fared, but you're a little off. I didn't mean the smile he was wearing when Atem-Kun hit him, but the look he was giving Ryou while he was whimpering and bleeding. I'm not saying that hte only reason he saved Ryou was for the boy's sake, it was for himself too, but a lot of people got the impression that he wanted to save Ryou - My sister isn't a yaoi fangirl, but she agrees with me full-heartdly on thins. If the manga had been a romance manga, I feel sure that Yami Bakura and Ryou would grow closer.

I believe Sally is right when she explains that he's attached to Ryou in a strange way, and also correct when she says that Atem wouldn't stab Yugi to get what he wants - but not all love is peaceful, is it? I mean, Yugi was scared of Atem at first, but in the end he got over it (this isn't a yaoi refrence, just an example); the two of them are sharing souls, no matter what way they do they can't ignore the other, they will always be there, it would only make sense that Ryou (as a human) would begin to feel some sort of connection with his other soul. (I don't mean sexual, it could be, but I'm just talking about love in general).

Honestly, I wasn't talking about that particular episode, Sally. Sorry about not answering this question (or whatever it is) sooner, I guess I must have over-looked it. I was thinking of two episodes, the episode where Kaiba threatened to commit suicide (I think everyone knows that one) and the episode where Mai and Anzu-Chan battled. That particular scene wasn't in the manga, but in the manga he was "clinging" to him, yes. Kazuki Takahashi, there was a Japanese bio on him that I translated that said it all. /shrugs/ I wanted to know a little more about the creator.

P.S. Ah, but I never said Ryou was meant to be gay, he just came out that way. Characters all develop over time, sometimes more then the creators themselves notice; I should know, I have many characters that belong to only me - my sister can point things out about them that I never even noticed. I'm sure if you would get over yourself, and just look over Ryou's speech, actions, and dress then you would see it.

P.S. And Fat1Fared, just because me and Noroi are fangirls doesn't mean we know nothing about the show, or how to read faces. And since I've brought up Noroi, I wanted to say sweetheart that I don't support yaoi because it looks cute, or sexy, or whatever you call it - but because it fits right with the characters. Sometimes, just for fun, I'll look at impossible yaoi couples, but I wouldn't go to such lengths to defend them as I do now with Ryou-Kun. I give you the same advice I give Sally, Fat1Fared, but something tells me that you don't look for naught then you don't want too.

[Fat1Fared]

(I could read the full edition of Lord of the Rings in 5th grade, so don't think you're too cool, sweetie. Lol)

Good for you, I finished them all, by age of 12, (including the Silmarillion) what does that prove, and that was my point.

Mate, read my post again please, I was making the point, our intelligences and all other things you were happily saying to make your OPINION seem more valid than mine, mean nothing here and that in end we are only going on our own VIEWS of what is there, truth is mate, neither of us know whether he is GAY OR NOT/ OR IF THEY ARE IN LOVE OR NOT. The only person who knows that is his maker and we are just guessing at best. PS sometimes being less intelligent helps as it means you can take a step back and stop looking for hidden meanings.

Next I was joking about Fan-Girl bit, Noroi realised that, stop taking live so seriously mate, it is all just bit of fun.

Finally, well you can believe what you want, but I personally believe that this show was never about this point and so Tak would not bother putting it in as it would be Inconsequential to the plot. He does not love Ryou and you saying he could is more just what you want to happen, in MY VIEW. I am not saying he feels nothing, but think if Ryou had nothing to offer him, he would be off in second and though I will emit that I never saw season 4, (so cannot say if he did anything there,) can say from what I saw he wasn't that complicated, just another villain wanting power. I personally think you could argue Honda(Tristan) is a more complicated character than Bukaru's evil spirit.

[TPishek]

My turn.
I've been watching this thread without saying much so far, and there have been some interesting viewpoints, but I feel the need to speak now. First off, I agree with Fat1Fared that intelligence has absolutely NO bearing on this subject. None. Besides, bickering about who's smarter than who just makes everyone look silly, because there will always be someone smarter than you. If I wanted to, I could give you a list of my own academic credentials. Take it from me, they aren't too shabby, better than anyone else has listed, but that's just the point: There will always be someone smarter, and it just becomes a petty war. Besides, as far as I can tell Yu-Gi-Oh has no relation to any IQ, GPA, or SAT score. All right? So please, let this be the last post about our own intelligence.

Back on topic.
I believe the major thought that is being approached here is this:
-Kazuki Takahashi is the only person who knows for sure what Ryou's sexual orientation is, and obviously he didn't think it was important enough to the plot of Yu-Gi-Oh to make a point of establishing it. It's like when JK Rowling revealed that Dumbledore was homosexual-- she'd known all along, of course, but that orientation had no effect on the plotline of her books and so was never brought up in the story. This is similar. Ryou is almost always in the background in Yu-Gi-Oh. Someone mentioned not having seen Season 4-- well, as far as I know Bakura doesn't show up in Season 4 once. Ever. And even when Bakura is there, physically present, nine times out of ten his yami's in control. Ryou honestly doesn't really have a chance to express any orientation, and Takahashi didn't try to remedy that because it would have had minimal to no effect on the plot anyway.

As far as Yami Bakura goes, once again there's the issue of plot coming first. YB is so incredibly driven that anything not directly related to his scheming or the carrying out of his strategies is abandoned, and that obviously includes romance of any sort. Protecting his host, Ryou, from the attack is necessary for his plots, and that's how he would rationalize the action. Even if there is "something more" there he would never admit it.
And concerning "under the right conditions": Well, that's what fan-fic is for. The "right conditions" were never reached in canon Yu-Gi-Oh. If someone wants to create the "right conditions" in their own imaginations and writing, and then see where that goes, that's their right. Will it sponsor debate like this? Of course, because it isn't canon, and there is no proof for it in canon. On the other hand, there is equally little proof against it. That goes for all of the pairings brought up here so far, and probably rather a few others.

Well, that's my two bits. And here's my lame ending.

[MrsSallyBakura]

Honestly, I wasn't talking about that particular episode, Sally.

I was thinking of two episodes, the episode where Kaiba threatened to commit suicide (I think everyone knows that one)
...and that was the exact episode I was talking about. Want me to post a clip? Skip to about 8:30 and watch until Ryou and Tristan let go (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0YROoy0OmE)
Yes it's the English version but it was the first one I found and they didn't do any visual editing in this scene. If you mean a different part entirely then by all means post that clip instead, but don't try to tell me that this part in particular is hinting toward Ryou's homosexuality because I won't believe it.
the episode where Mai and Anzu-Chan battled. That particular scene wasn't in the manga, but in the manga he was "clinging" to him, yes.
You mean in the anime he was clinging to him?
I don't think he was clinging to Yuugi out of romance or whatever. I think he felt more empathetic or something like that. I don't feel like going into an analysis or whatever right now but I'm keeping my options open.
First off, I agree with Fat1Fared that intelligence has absolutely NO bearing on this subject. None. Besides, bickering about who's smarter than who just makes everyone look silly, because there will always be someone smarter than you. If I wanted to, I could give you a list of my own academic credentials. Take it from me, they aren't too shabby, better than anyone else has listed, but that's just the point: There will always be someone smarter, and it just becomes a petty war. Besides, as far as I can tell Yu-Gi-Oh has no relation to any IQ, GPA, or SAT score. All right? So please, let this be the last post about our own intelligence.
THANK YOU.
Seriously. I don't need to say anymore and neither does anyone else. Just thank you is enough.

[Fat1Fared]

Well I am at a top English Law School, so I must be the smartest <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley7.png'> only joking, though my Mummy does say I'm special and my Daddy says I am special NEEDS
(But can I make 1 more little point please, though this me being a grammar Bully, for a MASTER of English, he does have a strange way of writing it, some interesting sentences there, sorry can't help myself)

TP, you have pretty much said what I was trying to say, only Mr Taz knows what he is and because it has nothing to do with plot, it is simply ignored. And because it is not actually in the story, it cannot actually be there, meaning that anything we say, is merely what we think/wish COULD happen. <ok>

In all agree with you on very point <ok> PS it was well written too.

i only said about not seeing season 4, because when I was making the point, that I have seen nothing to say that he is a very complicated character, (evil spirit) but was emitting that i do have a gap in my knowledge where something important could have happened.

Sally, it is like I said, though I do not think Ryou is gay or "NOT" gay, I do think he is very caring and attentive to his friends, so agree with you, this was not him loving YU Gi, merely trying to comfort him

[MrsSallyBakura]

At least not loving him in a way that makes him want to be in a romantic relationship with him.

[Fat1Fared]

ok now you lost me, (think you are being sarcastic right)

Personally, I think that, in that sence Yu Gi, was suppose to really upset and scared, and because his friends are suppose to REALLY REALLY care about him, he need someone comforting him. Normally Tea (Antza, i think, some time sense watched original show) would be one to do this, but she is somewhat busy fighting Myi's Brest's. And if think about it, who else but Ryou could really be one to comfort him here. Joey is really not the type for this and though suppose could argue Tristan could, Ryou just makes more sense, as it fits his character more.

Again it is part of plot, to make the story and its characters make sense, rather than some hidden Gay message.

[MrsSallyBakura]

Sorry, yeah, that's pretty much what I meant.

Love isn't always romantic. Love can be platonic too. Like how you love your parents or your brother/sister. Love isn't always sexual or romantic and it seems like a lot of people feel that way.

[KuroStarr]

People see what they want to see- in other words:
Some say that Bakura LOVES Yugi [or joey, marik, his other self, ect], because that is what some fans choose to see. While others would say they are just friends, because that is what the other fans choose to see.
Example: If Yugi hugs Joey, it could be mistaken for romantic feelings by some fans.
A simple action of affection towards someone else could be easily mistaken and seen as romance-when in reality the characters are really just good friends. I guess some fans just see what really wasn't there to begin with.
Me and my cousin were talking and she said, "What do you call it when you love some one, but not have a se xual attraction to?" and I say, "That would be called a 'friend', hun."
My guy friends hug each other all the damn time, but does that make them GAY? If you say yes- then your wrong. All the eveidance is there if you look for it.
Sorry to bring this back from the first page, but I really had to say something about this.
I don't think the person who created Bakura really put any thought into his preference at all.
Besides: If he really [i]does swing that way-then it wouldn't be hidden, it would be pretty obvious don't ya' think? :/

[MrsSallyBakura]

People see what they want to see
I agree.

My boyfriend and 6 other guys were at a hotel once. My boyfriend slept in a bed with 2 other guys and someone who wasn't in the bed took a picture of my boyfriend snuggling next to one of the guys in his bed. That picture is currently on Facebook (and also saved to my computer, lol).

The other guy has a girlfriend too.

So really... what does all that prove? It doesn't have to prove anything. Though if their scene at the hotel were part of a TV show, you'd get raving yaoi fangirls screaming, "OMG THEY'RE SO GAY" when... they're not... they're just not giving a crap about what others might think of them (mostly because they know that none of their closest friends will think they're gay) and having fun. The yaoi fangirls want to see them as gay and so they do.

[KuroStarr]

Yeah. It's true: Fangirls. ruin. EVERYTHING.

[godzilla454]

god damn you guys like to stroke your ego, who cares how you could read in 5th grade, lots of people could read lord of the rings in 5th grade( my motivation was to get fellowship of the ring done before it hit theatres), but still. You are also drawing way to much in to the whole characters being gay, the shows main theme is FRIENDSHIP!! I think what you are mistaking as acts of gayness or whatever, is merely acts of affection. I have seen no evidence to show Bakura as gay, or any other character. Even if any of the characters were gay or bi, it has absolutely nothing to do with the actions they made in the cartoon, or manga.

[ocrinaoftimefreak]

"Im not gay, just british".

hoo boy, the amount of times ive had to use THAT line.

[Fat1Fared]

So everyone has just comfirmed or agreed with what I put in first place, That shows how great I really am <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley7.png'>

PS GODZ, it wasn't Noroi who put about her reading abitilies, it was Blaire

[NamikoNakamura]

That's a good way to put it!
I think he's too concerned that he isn't a main character to fall in love with ANYONE, haha.

[Noroi]

Hey, as a fangirl, I resent that. lol Just kidding. Sadly that is true in most cases. I think the best view to have on see what you want to see becuase you like it, but don't be offended if someone else doesn't agree with you. Is it fun to discuss? Yes. But is it really going to matter a year down the line? Not really, no. He's a fictional character but he's sotra cute, so it's fun to talk about. Asside from that, some fangirls (and fanboys but they don't seem as bad most of the time for some reason) can take it a bit too seriously.
I like to think of him as gay because I'm a yaoi fangirl, but I can see why some people don't agree and that's fine with me. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Like, I myself don't like incest coupling like Garaa/Kankuro, but if it floats your boat, more power to you. Just don't try to force me to like it simply to agree with you.
Oh, and I read Tolkien's wonderful work at ten, not that that has anything to do with anything. I just thought it was three great books and figured the info could afford to be put out there. Hee hee. <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley1.png'>

[Fat1Fared]

Noroi, that is 100% true, and you seem to agree with me, nice 1 (5 Severed thumbs up lol <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley7.png'> )

PS, I like you, unlike some you can have a laugh and do not take yourself so Seriously

As for Tolkiens books, though I had read them all by 12, (PS that was to win a bet with my English teacher at time, (I may have won, but feel he got last laugh)) I now feel that was a mistake for me, as I feel I could not Appreciate their older writing style and storyline, I understood them, but at same time, I disliked them. I feel if read them now I may be more accepting of them,

[Noroi]

Noroi, that is 100% true, and you seem to agree with me, nice 1 (5 Severed thumbs up lol )

PS, I like you, unlike some you can have a laugh and do not take yourself so Seriously
Hey, it's just what seems to make sense. And you got to be able to laugh at yourself, gods know everyone else is going to. Why not partake in the fun at your expence? <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley2.png'>

And thanks for the severed thumbs. I wanted to send some to Yami Bakura anyway. Apparently he isn't quite sick of them for Sla... uh, I mean Christmas yet. <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley1.png'>

[Fat1Fared]

Don't know why, but had an idea you would like the thumbs lol <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley2.png'>

As for giving them to Bakura for X-mas, well got to be better than my present, my mum still won't take the fact I like Anime because to her, they are full of volience, bad words and sex (God, you would think I asked her for a dirty movie.) Best bit is she got me a movie I hate, "No Country for Old Men" WTF, anyone who has seen that movie, will know the Irony i am on about <doh>

PS=So true, everyone will laugh at you, no matter how good you are, some time or other you will slip up and say something silly, only the other day I got the meaning of Thearous as wrong as my spelling of it. Well My flatmates were over joyed at telling me I had got a fact wrong for once and had great fun blowing my ego back down to size, all I could do was laugh at myself as it was funny and if I got upset, well that would only make myself look more foolish anyway.